Start the Conversation Episode 1 Transcript

Kristy [00:00:01] How can we understand the engagement of young Australians in extremism?

Simon intro [00:00:09] The violent extremism landscape is fluid and complex and it can be difficult to navigate. This podcast series has been developed as a means of providing listeners with some thought provoking topics within this context, personal insights and journeys, as well as helpful information that could assist someone who was vulnerable to being involved in violent extremism. The Engagement and Support Unit services focus on early intervention, awareness and resilience against violent extremism. They consult with and support the local community with this information to help mitigate the drivers of violent extremism and raise awareness of the complex factors and vulnerabilities that contribute to these ideologies. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands and airways on which we are meeting and broadcasting today. As we share our learning, we also pay respects to elders past and present. It is their knowledge and experiences that hold the key to the success of our future generations and promote our connection to country and community. Please note that views expressed are not necessarily representative of the New South Wales Government. Episodes may contain depictions of violence or sensitive topics that some people may find distressing. For further information, please view our episode notes.

Heather [00:01:29] Hello, I'm Heather Jackson, Director of the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement Support Unit.

Rebecca [00:01:35] And I'm Rebecca Shaw, Communications and Community Engagement Manager. And this is Start the Conversation. In this introduction episode, we want to do a deeper dive into the work that we do at the Engagement and Support Unit and the trends that we see in our client base. We have a special guest with us today who is going to chat with us about emerging ideologies in Australia and how the focus today is on youth as young people are increasingly vulnerable to engaging in violent extremism and our own referrals are getting increasingly younger. Dr. Kristy Campion is from Charles Sturt University. We recently engaged Kristy to do some research on our young client base to see if they could draw any conclusions on the susceptibility nexus for young people's engagement in violent extremism. Kristy is a Senior Lecturer and Discipline Lead of terrorism studies at the Australian Graduate School of Policing and Security, Charles Sturt University. Kristy researches terrorism and extremism in Western democratic contexts with a focus on trans historical and transnational threat natures, ideological systems and underpinning political violence. Right and left wing threats, strategic evolution and complex challenges such as anti-government extremism and of particular interest today, youth extremism. That was a bit of a mouthful. So we'll hopefully break that down a bit for you now. So welcome, Kristy. Thanks so much for joining us.

Heather [00:03:03] Hi, Kristy.

Kristy [00:03:05] Thank you for having me.

Rebecca [00:03:06] I think as a starting point, we might ask Kristy for a definition of violent extremism. So in particular, what is the difference between radicalisation, violent extremism and terrorism? If we were to look at the whole spectrum of behaviours?

Kristy [00:03:19] Yeah. So in brief, radicalisation could really be described as almost a transformative process which an individual person may undertake, which allows them to essentially adopt different beliefs, different behaviours, essentially assuming an entirely different worldview to the one that they were thought to have held previously. So radicalisation is can be sort of associated with virtually any ideology or belief system, whether it's religious, political, ideological, left wing, right wing or all of these different systems can be involved in a radicalisation process. Now radicalisation in such a way creates the state for violent extremism. So violent extremism is generally the use, the threat, the promise, the glorification of violence, particularly violence being used in pursuit of political, ideological or religious goals. So it's a pretty broad range of activities. So, you know, violent extremism can include, you know, street violence, infiltrating, disrupting, protests with violent goals all the way through to really severe acts of violence, kidnapping, arson, hostage taking, through acts of terrorism. And so violent extremism is a really broad range of activities, one of the activities within violent extremism is terrorism. So terrorism is, generally speaking, again, motivated by politics, ideology or religion, and generally relates to the threat or use of violence to coerce a portion of society or society in general, to achieve some sort of ambition or goal. And so terrorism is that really severe violence, threat, a threat of death or serious harm to people, property or critical infrastructure. So radicalisation, violent extremism, terrorism, they all exist in the same space. Terrorists are radicalised, terrorists also engaging in violent extremism. So they're really interlinked in that way.

Rebecca [00:05:24] So could you say that the difference is violent extremism is advocating for or using violence, but terrorism is the act itself. For people listening, would that be a key kind of differing point?

Kristy [00:05:40] Yeah. Yeah, that's one way of thinking about it, although another way, I guess, is that terrorism is an act of violent extremism, that violent extremism includes terrorism. And so it sort of fits within that umbrella. But generally speaking, when when we see violent extremism and when we're talking about violent extremism, we generally are talking about those activities that actually stop short of acts of terror. Because let's face it, if someone's engaged in an act of terror, we'll call them a terrorist.

Heather [00:06:09] So and then touching back a bit on that, we often have people that we that look and sound radical in their views and what they're saying and how they how we perceive, how they've dressed or how they've changed in their personality. Does that necessarily make them a terrorist?

Kristy [00:06:27] No, absolutely not. I think when we think about radicalisation, it is generally presumed that radicalisation is towards violence or a violent outcome and that's simply not the case. You can radicalise and actually hold extreme views or extreme beliefs and still not endorse violence. So in such a way, radicalisation as a process, as a transformative process is almost neutral. What makes it a threat or something that we should be worried about when we're observing someone and, you know, their beliefs, their mannerisms and their dress and bearing is changing, is actually really what's the role of violence here? Is this person are their beliefs changing and are they coming to support or endorse or glorify violence? Or do they still actually pursue or think about non-violent or democratic means of social political change? At the end of the day, we actually can't and shouldn't criminalise people that want to change our political system. Our political system is based on change.

Heather [00:07:31] Yeah absolutely. And further down that question, so can we break down what ideologies fall under the violent extremism umbrella? So, as you know and you would get the more we get a lot of questions about far right extremism and far left extremism and where should they sit? Then we've got religiously motivated violent extremism, which some people find offensive in terms of its label. And then, you know, the terms of single issue or personal grievance. And it can be really tricky to define some of the ideologies and know what bucket to put them in. And more importantly, if there is a violent act - how do academics like yourself define that, trying to explain it to people about what is their drivers?

Kristy [00:08:14] Yeah, of course. So I think if we start with what is ideology, I think that's the central question. Now, ideology is a really benign thing. We all have an ideology, whether we are aware of it or not. And what it really is, is three things. Number one is a way of understanding the world around you. It's a way of imagining a better world and thinking of a way to achieve that better world. So in and of itself, very normal, a very normal thing, an ideology. And with that sort of really broad understanding, you can say, okay, well, it's quite clear how all these far right, far left, you know, they all form an ideology in one way or another. So does religion. When we think about religion, what we're really thinking about is, okay, well, this is my way of understanding the world through the lens of religion. This is my way of achieving a better world. And this is how, again, it's a very benign and encompassing thing. But when we're talking about it in a security sense, when we're talking about ideology or violent extremist ideology, which include all of those aspects you just touched on there, we're talking about a way of viewing the world and thinking about the world in which violence is essential for change, which means that manner, that mechanism to achieve social change, to achieve that better world must be through violence. Violence is not an option. Violence is a mandate. Violence will cleanse the world. It will burn away the old world and make way for the new. And we see this across religious extremism. We see this across extreme right, extreme left. All of it was that essentiality of violence. So, you know, so many different belief systems fit in there. So if we're talking about, for example, the extreme left, in extreme left wing ideology what we see is the advocation of violence to bring down established powers, to bring down the government institutions, systems, to burn all the trappings of the current order to make way for this egalitarian utopia. When we're talking about the extreme right what we see is discussions and I guess a lot of hate content that's exclusionary, that's seeking to exclude certain people from society based on their their ethnicity, their sexuality, their gender, that politics. They have this violent opposition to democracy as a system of government, and they really seek to control and mandate others. But essential to the extreme right is this idea that the current order is corrupted and perverted by all these enemies. The only way that you can purify the population is through violence. So again, with every ideology, it comes back to violence. You see the same thing with Salafi jihadists, where, you know, Salafism in and of itself is not typically advocating the use of jihad in the way that Salafi jihadists do it. They see jihad or violence as this essential criterion, and this essential act of faith and duty to Allah. And so when we're talking about violent extremism, regardless of the type, what we're really talking about is an entire worldview in which violence is the way that you achieve conflict resolution, the way that you achieve your political ideological ambitions, whether you're talking single issue, whether you're talking separatist nationalist, it all comes back to violence.

Rebecca [00:11:41] When we talk about defining ideologies, we there is a lot of talk within our own programs and also in the media at the moment about sort of mixed or salad bar ideologies, which is probably confusing people even further. This concept of picking and choosing from more than one. This is an issue that's perhaps more relevant in the current climate as we're seeing the rise of youth involved in violent extremism. Can you talk a little bit to this concept for our audience and what it means for countering violent extremism efforts?

Kristy [00:12:12] Yeah, of course. So essentially the salad bar phrasing. It's not been so popular I don't think since we first got Pizza Hut. But essentially what it really refers to a salad bar ideology. It's got many names, views, extremism, idiosyncratic extremism. What it's really referring to is someone's belief system that draws on multiple ideologies or that picks and chooses quite selectively ideas or conspiracies or beliefs from this really diverse realm of thought. And they integrate that into their belief about why the world is the way it is, how they think it should be, and their theory for social change. So as an example, what you could see in a salad bar ideology is someone who is showing all of the signs of being a right wing extremist, you know, they're racist, xenophobic, they are advocating the use of violence, they hate democracy, all of that. But then they'll turn around, say, but my ideal government is a republic, you know. And so that's one example of the salad bar where it just there's these really important concepts at play that sometimes stand that contrast to the other, to the other beliefs. Now, this is I think this is tricky not just for countering violent extremism, but it's also tricky for academics researching in this space as well, because I think what we all want is for ideologies to make sense because that's a lot easier. It's a lot easier for us to say, Well, this person is clearly a neo-Nazi or this person is clearly, you know, a left wing extremist. However, what we have to, I think, be a bit flexible about is the fact that actually ideologies don't always make sense. They don't always serve their holders and they don't always have to to fit a category. They don't have to fit a box. There are no rules here when it comes to what someone believes. So it is really challenging, I think, from a counter terrorism and a countering violent extremism perspective, because when when you can't really categorise the threat, it's really tricky to mobilise the right resources to confront it, to have the right people there to deal with it. So it is a challenge. And unfortunately, I don't think there's any easy answer as to how it could be managed any differently from the current contemporary terrorism landscape.

Heather [00:14:40] Do you think it makes them less of a threat when we talk about like the salad bar and as you say, the contradictions that people have, you know, they may say oh white supremacy and the purer race and the role of a man and a woman, etc.. But their best friend is actually gay or they may have other ethnic family or even themselves be of a different background than white supremacists normally look like. Do you think that makes them less of a threat or do you think that makes them more confused and just as a threat, regardless of their choosing, picking and choosing their ideology?

Kristy [00:15:15] Well, I think that it really does make them, in a way, slightly more of a threat, purely because it's so much harder to understand what they're actually trying to achieve in order to understand okay, well, what is the role of violence? What is this person's perspective on violence? How can we assess this person as being this particular threat or not when we can't really get a grasp of what they're believing? So in a way, just because it factors in this whole realm of unpredictability, I would argue that it's almost more of a threat than the others. Because what we certainly don't want, I think, both in academia, in countering violent extremism but also in the community, is to look at someone and go, okay, this this person is, you know, is sharing terrorist manifestos. They're outwardly calling for violence against certain portions of the community, but they supported gay marriage so they can't be a threat. Well, that logically, that doesn't really follow. You can, you know, support progressive or positive things in society and still be a violent threat through your ideology. So, yeah, it is quite tricky, though, and I think it is an ongoing challenge because we've been, you know, I think within the Australian countering violent extremism and terrorism apparatus, you know spent a good 20 years focussed on Salafi jihadism. Over the last five years, we've really seen that shift towards understanding the extreme right. And now there's all these new challenges, both, you know, emerging here, but also looming over the horizon. And so I think we really need to maintain some agility with respect to them.

Heather [00:16:57] And I think that's why we did this collaboration with Kristy, because the New South Wales Engagement and Support program is always trying to look at how we can address people's needs or risks and in their disengagement pathway from violent extremism. And the issue of youth that we've talked about and I know other security agencies have talked about, is what do we do with young people? So can you just talk us through your thoughts of when we did approach you to collaborate with this look at young people with the Engagement and Support Program, with our interventions, what did you see as some of the aims and objectives of the project?

Kristy [00:17:34] Look, I was thrilled to be involved in this project because I think it's one that's just so incredibly important, not just I think from a practice perspective, but so incredibly important from a democratic perspective. You know, young people today will be the voters of tomorrow. And we really do need to have a generation ready to participate meaningfully in a democratic society. So I thought this was just such an incredibly important project and one I was so thrilled to be invited to participate in. Academically speaking, of course, we had seen and heard various authorities, such as the Australian Federal Police, such as the Department of Home Affairs, ringing the bell for I think the last couple of years about the decreasing age of young Australians being involved in extremism. And from an academic perspective, it was really challenging because we knew that this was happening, but we just didn't really know why. And there was no no easy answer, no silver bullet within the academic community that might potentially explain why now? Why Australians? Why Australian young people? So when myself and a colleague, Associate Professor Emma Colvin became involved in this project, our aim was really exploratory, which was really how can we understand the engagement of young Australians in extremism? We didn't come with an answer. We came with a question. And so our objectives were really to look at, okay, what's happening in the academic literature, what do we think we know what's and then what's happening in practice. And so in practice that what that really meant was that we were talking to case managers and professionals associated with the engagement and support program who were looking at case file data and really trying to be as expansive and exploratory as we could be to try and get an understanding of why Australians and particularly young Australians were seemingly so vulnerable and susceptible to engagement in violent extremism.

Rebecca [00:19:41] Your report examines the pathways that may lead young people to become exposed to and engaged in extremism. Can you tell us some of the factors that contribute to young people and extremism and why this is particularly complex? I think it might be easiest for you to break that one into two. So like the recruitment pathways and then the radicalisation pathways.

Kristy [00:20:02] Yeah, absolutely. So essentially as we approached our research, what we're really interested in was a couple of questions. Number one, what's going on with these young people? What factors leading them to becoming involved? Were there in recruitment factors? And what could we understand about radicalisation? And I guess the first and most I think most important finding was actually about the young people themselves. And this was really heavily informed by interviews with with case managers, which was, I think, why people talk about young people these days. Sometimes I really think, okay have you spoken to a young person recently? Because some are just really out of touch. And so one of the things we found is that people talk about, you know, this young person has radicalised this young person to engage in violent extremism. There's this idea of this good kid gone bad. This idea of, you know, the entitled millennial throwing away all of their opportunities to support some regressive or archaic extremist belief system. What we found was that just was not the case. So the interesting finding was really about these young people. And that was that they were vulnerable and they were so much more vulnerable than I think we ever could have anticipated. So we're talking about young people who had been raised in violent households, young people who had been raised exposed to being to substance abuse, to domestic violence, to neglect, to poverty that had adverse childhood experiences that experienced trauma. Some had experienced homelessness like victimisation at school, being bullied, having poor opportunities like these young people were not good kids gone bad, they'd had struggles they'd had a hard time already. And so that really shaped those two other things that we're looking at, recruitment and radicalisation. Because when we're talking about someone radicalising and talking about them transforming their belief systems, what we're also talking about is that change. So when we go to a young person who's in this really insecure environment and things aren't looking good for them. Suddenly they adopt this ideology and this ideology says, hey, you matter. And ah, you know, there's light at the end of the tunnel and there's hope for you. And, you know, you can be part of this community where we all think that you're amazing. Well, for a young person who's experiencing this really significant hardship, those sorts of beliefs can be really, really enticing. So when we were looking at the radicalisation of young people, what we really found was there was pretty variable understandings of ideology, of religion really. And we got this case managers as well, really variable understandings of their own extremist belief system. They seemed diverse, unique in how they had radicalised in radicalisation factors. Some had engaged heavily online, some had engaged heavily offline. Some had really strong domestic network engagements. Some had really weak domestic engagement, really strong transnational engagements, there were all these factors at play. But what it really came down to for us was was two things. One was violence, of course, which was there's this normatively of violence in the young person's environment, which meant that for them to radicalise to violence, yeah, it wasn't that big a step. Violence again was their average Tuesday. But at the same time, what it also spoke to this variable knowledge of their own extremist belief systems was their need for community. And what we really found, particularly those people that were so young that they were still in school where they were being bullied or mistreated or picked on. That need for community was really, really powerful. And that was a great thing about violent extremism, is that it offered them community. It offered them a place where they could feel like they belonged and where everything made sense.

Heather [00:24:09] It's funny when you say that, Kristy, because when we were talking about it and you were talking about the recruitment phase, what it sounded like to me was any other sort of grooming that young people have, whether it be into, or you know, even older people, whether it be into a cult or people getting groomed into, you know, trafficking or into behaviours or sex or groups that are unhealthy for them, but commonly doing that sense of building their self-worth and belonging. Did you find in terms of that recruitment phase, very similar sort of tactics used by other people for nefarious reasons?

Kristy [00:24:48] Yeah, absolutely. And so that was one of the really significant aspects when we were looking at recruitment pathways, which was and again, sort of challenging some of the stereotypes, I think, in the community that, you know, this young person that logged on to the Internet and the evil YouTube algorithm led them to suddenly being a violent extremist. Well, actually, what we found was in some cases, these young people had been purposefully targeted. They had been targeted by friends, they had been targeted by family, uncles, grandfathers. They had been targeted by malicious operators online. They had been directly curated and cultivated by organisations. And so that meant that for some of them, their process was one of socialisation. They didn't know. I mean, we yet again, we're talking about, in some cases, kids, yeah, they did not know that they were being socialised towards violent extremism. They didn't know the violent extremist ideas were being normalised to them. So in some cases, we were able to very much see, okay, this has been a grooming situation this has been quite deliberate. Other times it was much more organic where it was just sort of this incremental transformation, the incremental radicalisation towards violent extremism. One of the things that really came out of the interviews with case managers was about a personal characteristic of these young people, which was that they were quite naive. They really didn't know that they were being lured into anything nefarious they just thought, hell, this person's being nice to me, this person is paying attention to me. As you said, Heather, they were building their self-worth. They were making themselves feel like they belonged. And some of them, in very rare instances, were then treating other people like that as well. And as we know, this is a direct correlation with how we see groomers act when it comes to child sex trafficking, child sex exploitation. So realistically, where we're thinking or talking about young people engaged in violent extremism, we really have to remember, okay, sure, they may have been a perpetrator, but there's a high chance that they were also a victim.

Rebecca [00:27:00] You know, this actually speaks to a question that I had. I don't know if it's a question or actually a statement, but, you know, increasingly younger and younger people being involved. It calls into question this concept of indoctrination or grooming. You know, can a young person even form their own set of ideological belief systems? You know, so. And I think you've spoken to this before. Do you have any comment on that sort of concept?

Kristy [00:27:26] Absolutely. And look, if we go back to sort of where we started this conversation, what is radicalisation? Well, you know, it's this transformation of beliefs and ideas well with young people, they might not already have beliefs or ideas set into stone. So what transformative process are we really talking about here, particularly when they're so young and their development is not yet complete and they're just being fed this material by other people unquestioningly. You really have to wonder, okay, well, has this been a radicalisation process or have they merely been indoctrinated? Particularly when we found that some of these young people had really limited understandings of their extremist belief system. And as our case managers were able to inform us, if I can badly paraphrase one of our interviews, they said they couldn't have told you what a Nazi was, and yet they joined a Nazi gang. You know, so when that happens, if they do not understand their own ideology, how can we say they are radicalised? So in those cases we say, well, no, they have been manipulated and they have been indoctrinated to simply spout what some predatory adult thinks that they should be spouted.

Heather [00:28:42] And I think it's a really what I call some of the myth busting that came from some of your study was that we're hearing a lot and it is a relevant sort of threat or vulnerability is online. That people are getting groomed online for these behaviours. And I think something that Kristy and Emma, your colleague Emma, really brought out to me, which I thought was really interesting, is how much is actually happening in real life. How much is happening through family members or members in the community that are exposing and collecting and grooming people to for these sort of behaviours or groupthink or ideological drivers. And that really surprised me that it's just not all happening online in a small room, that it's in your community.

Kristy [00:29:26] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important aspect of it. We do typically think and again, I think it might be a generational thing when young people starting to act up. It's got to be the Internet. The Internet is to blame. When realistically, the Internet, sure, the Internet has risk. No one would ever disagree with that. But the Internet can also provide protective factors, and you just need to be one of those people that is part of a knitting community online to know that you can get some really positive things from that.

Heather [00:29:54] I think you're adding yourself Kristy.

Kristy [00:29:56] Yeah. I wish I could knit. But look, one of the things that we did find quite surprising was the the prevalence of domestic organisations at play, but also the the significance of offline engagement. Now sometimes that meant that they would meet someone online, but they would quickly follow up with offline engagement because of course the online domain we all know it's not secure. And violent extremists know that as well. You don't want to get caught doing something. Don't do it online. So there was this really significant offline component there. But in other cases, we had offline components that were there from the start. And I'm talking family. You know, I'm talking friends, I'm talking being recruited out of the schoolyard. So we can't just think of this as a problem that is confined to malicious actors online and overseas. This is a problem both in our homes but also in our communities. These young people are very rarely radicalising entirely on their own.

Rebecca [00:30:58] It really draws on the need for the broader community support, doesn't it? And awareness. I'm just going to step it back a little bit just for our listeners. When you talk about the report findings, you're mentioning vulnerability and susceptibility quite frequently. Can you explain the difference between vulnerability and susceptibility?

Kristy [00:31:21] Yeah, absolutely. So look, this is one of those things that might be contested amongst academia or even, of course, within the CVE field of our practice. But generally speaking, when we were looking at vulnerability, we were looking at three areas of interest. So first was personal vulnerability. What was going on with that young person? Was there some sort of cognitive impairment? Was there a trauma history, mental health history? Were there issues or questions or uncertainties regarding identity, sexuality, ethnicity, physicality, all all of that. So it was that first layer - personal. The second way was social. Were they well-integrated with their communities or were they being subject to bullying? Were they isolated? What were their relationships like? Did they have a secure relationship with their family? Did they have any secure relationships with peers? That one proved to be quite interesting. And then the third area of interest was the environment. So what was life like for them? What was the home life? What was, you know, what was their experiences of violence? What were their experiences in the community that really sort of expansive view of what it means to be vulnerable. Now vulnerabilities in that way create the overall susceptibility. So susceptibility is your likelihood of engaging in violent extremism or your likelihood of being susceptible or vulnerable to approaches by violent extremists. So some of the things we noted with respect to susceptibility was, yes, okay, you have your baseline vulnerability, but that's then compounded by things like grooming, by things like impulse control, by things like personal characteristics. Are you easily influenced? Are you impressionable, are you a risk taker? And so vulnerabilities and susceptibilities really intermingled to create this overall picture of whether someone was likely to be lured in to violent extremism.

Heather [00:33:19] And I think that's interesting because when we're talking about this, it almost seems formulaic or an equation. If you have X, Y, Z experiences, then you are more vulnerable or susceptible to violent extremism. But that's actually not the case is it though, because, you know, we have a lot of people, young people that are bullied at school, they don't become terrorists. So it's sort of and then we're also talking about a very small numbers of clients that we're looking at. So in terms of some of the qualitative data, in talking to some of the case managers, what do you think you really gained some insight in about young people in vulnerability and susceptibility?

Kristy [00:34:01] Yeah, look, absolutely. One of the things that was really impactful in talking to the case managers was yeah, there is no checklist for this. You can't simply just, you know, tick a couple of boxes and go, yep, this this person's going to become engaged. If anything, the interviews with case managers really highlighted just how complex the situation was, how complex the young person's context was, and also just, I guess, the very discrete, very particular series of unfortunate events that led them to become part of an ESP caseload. So it certainly wasn't, you know, one plus one equals violent extremism, that's for sure. But one of the things we really learned in talking to the case managers was that some of these young people that they had been managing had this almost desperate need to appease to satisfy. And some of them at least would mention that, you know, this particular client or that particular client was just so desperate for approval, so desperate to belong, so desperate to have a positive and healthy relationship in their life. And so if, you know, if we take the data out of it, what we're really talking about is these young people are lost. And, you know, the ESP program, I think has been really important in helping them actually find out who they really are as a separate identity from that of violent extremism.

Rebecca [00:35:34] Well, when you're talking about needs there, Kristy, needs of the clients, from your research, what does the Engagement and Support Program model offer young people and then potentially other areas where complex case management is required?

Kristy [00:35:46] Yeah. Look, so I think one of the things that really struck myself and Emma with this research was just how needs based the case management is with the Engagement and Support Program. So needs based, trauma informed you know with we were really quite impressed by the case managers and the sheer complexity of the cases they were dealing with that the incredible nuance. So you know, in one case we're talking about this particular case a manager had been dealing with where the young person's family was so incredibly violent that no one would touch them. And so, as a consequence, this young person wasn't getting help from anywhere until they became involved with ESP And so in that way, it really struck us that, hang on, this is really quite a fearless team who are willing to take on just these incredibly complex, incredibly vulnerable young people and to offer them a safe space where they can find what it means to belong to society again. So we were really, really impressed with that because the criminal justice system is not typically could not typically be described that way. You know, we're talking about, you know, some of these young people, you know, they might have sat in a bail hearing and been given bail conditions and not understood of single one of them. Whereas the personal hands on nature of case management that we observed with the ESP was just this entirely different world. And so I think it certainly can offer insight into other programs and into into managing those complex cases where there is a pretty unfortunately that pretty genuine threat of violence.

Heather [00:37:24] And I think it's not as simple as to say because you're talking a lot about needs. And in violent extremism, we talk a lot in risks. And so I think what I'm hearing you say is there's so many complexities of their needs. It's not that simple to just find and replace a group for them. Don't think that or don't follow them. Follow this way. It's not as simple as that.

Kristy [00:37:48] No, absolutely not. And also, you know, I think you've probably said this often enough. It's not a deradicalization program, but you can't just work out one belief system and give them another and say you go on your way. What struck us in those interviews that it was really about almost guiding the young person rather than necessarily mandating and saying, well, you need to do A, B and C. It was rather a much more non-judgemental, non manipulative, really transparent engagement with that young person.

Heather [00:38:23] And I think I've heard you say not I think I've heard I have heard you say at a conference when someone was referring to the client in the program is that they've hit rock bottom. So whether they've had law enforcement engagement or, you know, they've come to threats to them of harm to themselves or others, they've hit rock bottom to come into this program and then makes us look at how can we prevent this earlier. And looking at what can the role of the community play in early intervention, what would be your wish list for the community?

Kristy [00:38:58] Look, it would be long.

Rebecca [00:39:00] That's a hard one.

Kristy [00:39:01] And I think impossible to achieve, particularly when we are dealing with such a young client base. I remember one of the case managers said, and they put it so simply and so well, kids can be cruel. And and I think that is incredibly true, because what we certainly found was these young people, they weren't the popular kid on the football team. You know, they weren't surrounded by friends and opportunities and whatnot. They were generally excluded from society. They had been excluded from their own communities. And so I think on the top of my wish list is really having that community led, community based approach, not just to keeping young people out of violent extremism, but keeping them out of the fringe altogether for any reason. In my mind, if we have young people that have secure attachments and they have a place to belong and they have a future that they can look forward to, that becomes the bedrock for our flourishing democracy. You know, and I think that actually should matter to all of us, not just to young people. So look at my wish list is way too long.

Rebecca [00:40:08] That's where you would start.

Kristy [00:40:09] Yeah.

Rebecca [00:40:10] I mean, where is the broader support required or does that speak to a really long list and you can't start on that one.

Kristy [00:40:17] That was one of the conversations we did have with the case managers was, okay, how can we support you and not just, you know, from an academic perspective. Because, of course, I think the research is actually behind the practice in this regard. But actually, you know, what challenges are you facing and how can we work around them? And one of the massive challenges pointed out to us by the case managers was simply stigma that these young people, particularly if they're in a rural, or regional area everyone knows who they are. Everyone knows what they've just gotten in trouble for. As you said, there's normally been some sort of law enforcement engagement, or at least the school principal knows and the family knows and the neighbours know, and they are labelled as a bad kid. They are labelled as being a terrorist. And that's just so wrong because often these kids, I mean, sometimes they have, but some of the time these kids have not actually sought to engage in a terrorist act and they're being labelled as that. And this becomes this life long sentence of that person is a terrorist. And what that really means is it's really, really hard for them to find that new identity, to find their feet in a new future for themselves and really hard for case managers. To get them back involved in the community if they're still being labelled by it. So stigma is just this really troubling aspect here because we really want these young people to go and feel welcomed back in their own communities. And if they're not, then it's really hard to get much meaningful change.

Rebecca [00:41:53] It really is a question of a really broad education and awareness piece, isn't it?

Heather [00:41:56] Yeah, and I think it's down to that. I think what we're fundamentally always talking about is that identity. Who are we and where do we belong? And it is so important for community and government agencies, etc., to support and understand the issue to enable the child to move on to a healthier life.

Kristy [00:42:17] Yeah, absolutely. And like, I think if we think about some of the history here, you know, it's well known in terrorism studies that adult offenders, adults who have been convicted of waging lethal campaigns of terrorism, have gone on to reintegrate back into the community and they've become academics. You know, if they can do it, then surely the 14 year old that posted content online glorifying Islamic State can be given a second chance.

Heather [00:42:47] Yeah, And I think I'd like to end with a quote that you've used in previous presentations, and I just think it just resonates with this discussion and about how it's just not the journey of the child, but the impact of the community. And and it's an African proverb that you use that says the child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth. And I think that really sums up some of the young people that we are dealing with, that sense of belonging, whatever it takes. And I think that's just really speaks to this universal desire to feel a sense of belonging in the community and feel part of the community. And what we want is them to have the right community and a healthy and safe community. So obviously, we haven't solved this problem today. It's it's really complex, but hopefully we've shone a light on some of the under-recognized factors which may impact a young person's engagement with extremism or even that curiosity and how can we manage it. So I'd really like to thank Dr. Campion for your work that you've done and the advocacy work in terms of raising a light on young people in violent extremism.

Rebecca [00:43:55] Yeah. Thank you so much, Kristy. We really appreciate your time today.

Kristy [00:43:58] Thank you for having me.

Simon intro [00:44:04] You have been listening to Start the Conversation, a podcast series produced by the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism, Engagement and Support Unit. For more information please see the episode notes or visit www.steptogether.nsw.gov.au