Start The Conversation: Episode 2 Transcript

Ollie [00:00:01] I was not fully aware. It's basically psychological warfare for a teenager brain. It's just yeah, you just can't comprehend it. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are. It was really good having someone to talk to about it because it's a very isolating situation. And it significantly improved my mental health.

Intro [00:00:22] The violent extremism landscape is fluid and complex and it can be difficult to navigate. This podcast series has been developed as a means of providing listeners with some thought provoking topics within this context. Personal insights and journeys, as well as helpful information that could assist someone who was vulnerable to being involved in violent extremism. The Engagement and Support Unit services focus on early intervention, awareness and resilience against violent extremism. They consult with and support the local community with this information to help mitigate the drivers of violent extremism and raise awareness of the complex factors and vulnerabilities that contribute to these ideologies. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands and airways on which we are meeting and broadcasting today as we share our learning. We also pay respects to elders past and present. It is their knowledge and experiences that hold the key to the success of our future generations and promote our connection to country and community. Please note that views expressed are not necessarily representative of the New South Wales Government. Episodes may contain depictions of violence or sensitive topics that some people may find distressing. For further information, please view our episode notes.

John [00:01:42] Hi, I'm John, Senior Case Manager for the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement and Support Program, also known as ESP. You are listening to Start the Conversation. My role is to provide support to individuals who are vulnerable to or have engaged in violent extremism. This is done through collaborative case management to address the vulnerabilities and the risks of our clients. The impact of the Covid 19 pandemic restrictions on young people found nearly half of the national school population being vulnerable to negative impacts on their learning, their mental wellbeing and social connectedness. Students were confined to their homes and undertook remote learning, increasing their exposure to the use of online platforms with the increase in online activities and technology. Young people were introduced to a new means of communication that offered the opportunity to spread information all around the world at rapid speed. Misinformation, disinformation, stigmatisation and extremism were disseminated at a higher rate than ever before. An extreme consequence was vulnerable young people being exposed to or becoming radicalised. One such young person and client of the Engagement and Support Program who became radicalised during that time is my guest today, Ollie. We're not using Ollie's real name to protect his identity. Welcome, Ollie, it's big of you to join us today.

Ollie [00:03:09] Thank you for having me, John.

John [00:03:11] Ollie, prior to Covid, can you tell us what kind of teenager you were?

Ollie [00:03:15] I was a teenager who was involved in school, academics. I also was on the school rugby team. I was enjoying that. Getting better at it.

John [00:03:24] You're quite a good student as well.

Ollie [00:03:25] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I focussed more on my studies.

John [00:03:28] What was happening to you in 2020?

Ollie [00:03:30] During the 2020 lockdown, I was bored and alone at home, and I found some dark jokes and memes to entertain myself. And I fell down the rabbit hole of extremism through the use of discord.

John [00:03:46] You had a tough time during Covid?

Ollie [00:03:48] Yes. My dad had lost his or become redundant at his job. And it put a lot of stress on the family and there was. Yeah. A lot of stress around what was going to happen in the future.

John [00:04:01] Did you feel quite vulnerable at that time?

Ollie [00:04:05] Yes. I felt very vulnerable.

John [00:04:06] Did you hold any particular ideologies?

Ollie [00:04:08] So I'd come into the 2020 lockdown with a more conservative point of view. Nothing major. It was more conservative leaning as opposed to being a full blown conservative. And online, I'd become more and more radical as I found communities that were further right and right and were against the left wing ideology.

John [00:04:30] Can you let me know what conservative ideology meant to you then?

Ollie [00:04:34] What conservative ideology meant to me was with the economic system. I found that I was more pro-business, more pro small business, and when I saw that small businesses were getting shut down and that they were coming to an end, I thought it was very bad for the economy. And I was against the people who were pushing for an economic doom.

John [00:04:56] Was that like an anti-government type stance you had?

Ollie [00:05:00] Yeah, it developed into an anti-government stance. I certainly felt the government at time at that time was destroying what I believed in. And it pushed me further away from them.

John [00:05:11] What platforms did you begin spending a lot of time on?

Ollie [00:05:15] So I shifted from Reddit to Discord, and i was spending a lot of my time several hours a day. Sometimes even half the day using discord on these communities.

John [00:05:26] What did you find that Reddit didn't give you?

Ollie [00:05:29] Discord has a sense of freedom that Reddit doesn't have. Everyone can view it. It's public to everyone. Whereas with Discord, you can invite link to join a community. And that's what makes Discord so much more unique, is that you can post whatever you want and you can set it so that people, if they join it, they can't see everything. So it makes it a lot more secretive and it makes it so that you can post what you want a lot easier.

John [00:05:59] So none of the sites or platforms you're on had controls or moderation to them.

Ollie [00:06:05] No, none of them had moderation at all. It was free to use for anyone.

John [00:06:10] Ollie, can you explain how this escalation occurred and what was motivating you to continue? What were you feeling?

Ollie [00:06:17] So the reason why I left Reddit and went to Discord was Reddit was cracking down on dark jokes, dark memes, offensive material, and it was destroying communities, which I'd found on there. And the way that I was able to keep viewing these communities and go to communities without a filter was through Discord links, which were posted in the comments of the subreddits.

John [00:06:41] So only through Discord you found a group called Foodists. Was that a turning point for you?

Ollie [00:06:48] Yes, it was a turning point for me as I'd gone from my being semi extremist, semi radical and maybe full blown radical and lose control a lot more with my actions.

John [00:07:01] What type of things did you encounter in the Foodists?

Ollie [00:07:04] I encountered a lot more gore like gory videos, military videos. I encountered a lot more offensive videos targeting vulnerable people. People of communities we didn't like and people with opposite agendas. And they were very nasty and targeting specifically to those people and ruining their lives.

John [00:07:27] Were their leaders in this group.

Ollie [00:07:28] Yes.

John [00:07:29] Were you one of them?

Ollie [00:07:30] I was one of the leaders in the group.

John [00:07:32] How did you become one of the leaders in the Foodists group?

Ollie [00:07:35] So from spending lots of time, they slowly gained trust to me. They slowly got to know me more. And they really liked how funny I was at these jokes and they decided to keep promoting me and got me into higher positions of power. And yeah, I developed a strong connection to them.

John [00:07:53] Basically, you describe those interactions as addictive.

Ollie [00:07:56] Yes. Yes. I was addicted to the power I was getting and the voice I had over people.

John [00:08:01] When did you feel that you'd lost control?

Ollie [00:08:05] I lost control, definitely after the second lockdown started, I felt a sense of not caring anymore. I didn't care what happened to the future. I thought that everything was doomed. And once that mentality started, it meant I lost my true morals. I'd lost my true self, and I just devoted my time to the Foodist community.

John [00:08:32] Would you consider the members of the Foodist group your friends?

Ollie [00:08:35] Some of them I'd consider my friends, but I certainly didn't have a connection to them as I did in real life. But they were more people who understood my ideologies better, and I was able to talk about that for a long time with them.

John [00:08:50] So they offered you a sense of community?

Ollie [00:08:52] Yes. Yes, they did.

John [00:08:53] There was a time, though, Ollie where there was some change happening with you prior to that warrant.

Ollie [00:09:01] Correct? That was when I'd found Christianity. And I wanted to try and motivate some other people in that community to move on from that and to stop doing it because of how harmful it was to people. And I actually had plans the next day before the warrant to actually help destroy the servers. And I was never able to do it. But I still do hope that I was able to help wake people up.

John [00:09:31] So all the I know you mentioned the lack of moderation and controls on these platforms. Were there any motivations or controls within your home?

Ollie [00:09:40] So during this time in Covid, there were no restraints as I needed full access to my computer. I needed access to everything. Had to download different things every day to make online learning work, which meant that with my door closed with me having full access online bored, it meant that I could just keep doing whatever I wanted to do. Where in my mind went was a dangerous, dangerous path.

John [00:10:05] So this almost created a perfect storm for you?

Ollie [00:10:08] Yes. Yes, it did.

John [00:10:10] And then it ultimately led to the police knocking on your door.

Ollie [00:10:14] Yes. Yes, it did.

John [00:10:15] Can you take us through that day?

Ollie [00:10:16] I started the day nice and early at about six in the morning, I woke up to go to an extension math class, had a shower, heard a knock on the door, and I didn't know what it was. And about half a minute later, the door opened and I saw about three police officers looking at me. And I was very confused. So I put on a towel, walked outside. I saw about six officers this time. I was very, very worried about what was happening. And I got instructed to go to my room and put some clothes on, which I did. And I walked out and the leading person in the case put the papers in front of me and put two allegations in front of me which they had court order granted to search my house and seize my devices. And it left me feeling very, extremely anxious about what was going to happen, how the future of my life was going to play out, whether I was going to be arrested that day or remain a free person. And the uncertainty and anxiety completely ruined my life during that time.

John [00:11:26] Yeah. Your parents and sister were at home at the same time.

Ollie [00:11:27] Yes, they were. And it broke me to see them so overwhelmed, stressed, anxious over something that they had no control in. It broke me to say the animals in my house, scared. Not knowing why there so many people. It broke me to see the house that my parents worked so hard to get. For them to have people unwanted in their house wondering what was going on. It was terrible.

John [00:11:55] Ollie at the time did you think it was because of your online behaviours?

Ollie [00:11:59] At first I was so stunned I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know if someone had, it's called squatting online. It's where they say that where someone who doesn't like you calls the police and says you're doing something, you've got a hostage in your house. Didn't know if it was that. Didn't know if someone made a complaint about me. If someone made like a welfare check on me. I just did not know. And then when I saw the papers put in front of me about discord.

John [00:12:27] That's when the penny dropped?

Ollie [00:12:28] Yes. When the penny dropped. But on the allegations, I was very confused about the other one. I could kind of recall but yeah it was just very confusing to me.

John [00:12:39] Ollie you're a very intelligent person, obviously bright, when you look back, do you think you were fully aware of what was happening?

Ollie [00:12:46] I was not fully aware coming from the point of view I have now. I'd say that for a 15 or 16 year old, the brain is just not developed enough to understand these traps that you can fall into, the manipulation you can be under. It's basically psychological warfare. And for a teenager brain, it's just yeah, you just can't comprehend it. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are.

John [00:13:10] At this stage of your progress with ESP, would you mind reflecting on your past behaviours perhaps in terms of what lessons learnt or what advice you could give to other kids or teenagers on the verge of going down that violent extremist pathway?

Ollie [00:13:25] A crucial lesson is everything you put online can be traced, could be traced. And if someone really wants to find out, they can find out. So it's very important you do not incriminate yourself through reckless actions. Through trying to be funny. It's not worth it. It's better off just use the internet as a learning tool or communicating tool rather than trying to build a community or push something. There are smarter ways to do it.

John [00:13:52] Ollie, do you think fear is a major barrier for young people to ask for help?

Ollie [00:13:56] Absolutely. I think that fear is what stops people from being able to reach out to someone and talk about what's happening in their lives. And I think it's important that people need to overcome the barrier, because the further it goes down and the further it snowballs, the worse the effects can be.

John [00:14:15] And you've been at the other end. You know what it's like.

Ollie [00:14:17] Yes. I've gone through a complete court case. I've been sentenced. And if I could do it over again I would ask someone for help, I would have looked into what I can do to stop it, because it's way cheaper to stop it, for starters. It's better for your mental health. It's better for your connections to other people. It saves you stress that you don't need in your life. And it can help you live the life you need to live.

John [00:14:40] A lot of kids were left unmonitored during Covid and to an extent, many still are. Do you have any advice for parents of kids that spend a lot of time online?

Ollie [00:14:49] A really good thing that you can do for your kids is find a way for them to be off their devices. Every parent and their kid are completely different from one another. So there's not one to answer, in my opinion. But if you come from a more sporty family, why not try do more sport, introduce your kid to different sports keep them entertained if they're involved in being in the bush, why not try getting them a dirt bike? Why not try to find an activity which suits your lifestyle and their lifestyle, which can help them move away from these online communities?

John [00:15:18] How did it come about that you agreed to consent to join the ESP?

Ollie [00:15:22] So on the day of my warrant, I was offered to join this or apply for this program, and I got told that this can reduce the sentence or help reduce the sentence you do get if I was to get charged, which I did, and originally I was going to join for that reason. However, in the period between having the warrant, applying, going through the steps, which was not until about late January, early February, I'd started living the life of a normal person, not being online, going outside, going to the gym. And it changed how I see the world. And I thought the ESP would be a great place for me to be able to find some techniques to never end up in that situation, to find some ways to not find traps into those communities and build some life skills to help me prevail in life.

John [00:16:12] ESP being a voluntary consent program. Does that make any difference to you willing to sign up for us?

Ollie [00:16:18] Yes. For starters, original reason was I thought it would look good for a judge that I'm joining a voluntary program. I also really liked how I didn't know how the program was going to be when I started. Joining the ESP voluntarily took the pressure off, been forced to do something which at the time was part of the reason I was in those communities was because I was being forced to do things. I really enjoyed voluntarily seeking help. I found that I listen better. I found that it was I was able to learn more effectively joining something voluntarily rather than being forced to do something, which I think is a very good thing. And I think it will help a lot of people.

John [00:16:51] Why do you think you benefited most in the early stages when you joined the ESP?

Ollie [00:16:56] Suddenly having to someone to talk to was the main part. It's simple, but I had someone to talk to about my court, they were able to reassure me about certain stuff which I was unaware of. It was really good having someone who was able to talk to the Federal Police, so gave me a bit of an update or gave me a bit of guidance on what was happening, because at the time I had no update and it left me very worried. But it was really good having that person who was able to be almost like a middle person between me and the police.

John [00:17:24] Was there anything else?

Ollie [00:17:25] Yeah. The education that are I received on different traps I can fall into, how I fell into the traps, they were able to provide me with a person who was an expert in that kind of field. They were able to teach me about what happens, how they come about finding these things. And it was really, really good to have someone for that perspective to teach me.

John [00:17:47] Ollie, did you think you would have made the same progress without the support of your ESP case manager?

Ollie [00:17:52] Certainly not. It was crucial in me being able to reintegrate into society to have someone who could teach me the coping skills. Who was able to help me throughout the whole process. It was just really amazing.

John [00:18:04] What benefits to your mental wellbeing came from ESP?

Ollie [00:18:08] It was really good having someone to talk to about it because it's a very isolating situation. You can't really go around saying it because it's just not socially accepted to say it. But it was really, really good having that person who I was able to talk to and it significantly improved my mental health.

John [00:18:26] ESP also work with families. Did you see some benefit at home?

Ollie [00:18:30] Absolutely. They were able to talk to my parents about the situation reassure them and help give them some education as well into what happened, which made the whole family dynamic a lot better.

John [00:18:40] Ollie, what would you say to someone who is in your circumstances about joining ESP?

Ollie [00:18:47] I would say it's definitely worth it. I would say that it may seem scary, it may seem concerning. You may worry about what people might think of your family. People with ESP, I can tell you that they don't care. They're here to help. I'm sure your parents will appreciate you joining something voluntarily rather than someone showing up at your door like what happened to me. It's better that you take the first step rather than someone take the step for you. Where it can actually for the rest of your life, impact it.

John [00:19:11] And where are you now?

Ollie [00:19:12] Right now I'm ending my teenage years. I'm hanging out with my friends when I'm not working. I've got a full time job, which I've recently been promoted and I'm about to be promoted again. I'm currently working out cars, me and my friends are working on our cars. We're building them up to be more capable off road. We're going camping, having a lot of fun off road exploring New South Wales, I guess. We're even going to Queensland end of the year, which is exciting. It's a big first step for me to travel. Yeah, it's really good to be able to communicate in real life rather than being trapped in my house alone and feeding dark energy.

John [00:19:52] Do you ever miss those groups? I mean, that was a big part of your life for a couple of years.

Ollie [00:19:56] No, I don't miss them at all. The hurt it caused on me and my family, even though I was a part of them for a while and it was a big part of my life. It was constant negative energy, as I said before, and it made my worldview and made my mental health dark and not really want do much in life, which is pretty sad.

John [00:20:14] You find yourself quite stable and very steadfast. How do you keep yourself in check?

Ollie [00:20:19] For my anger and for my losing control, I the way I discipline myself is through martial arts. I do tai kickboxing or muay thai and jiu jitsu, and I find that's really, really good for mental health and discipline and it keeps me in check. I find that when it comes to political stuff, I don't tend to get too involved into one side. I'll see an event that happened online I'll review it. I'll make my own opinion. I won't look at comments on it. I'll kind of form my own opinion rather than feeding into one side or one side telling me what to do. And I don't let it dictate my life either. I'll look at something and I'll go, okay, that happened and move on my life. And I think it's really important that keeping myself busy allows me not to worry too much or feed it too much into political events, as I find focusing on my life is definitely more important.

John [00:21:12] That critical thinking and your world view is is very grown up. How did you get that?

Ollie [00:21:18] From my father. My father taught me how to critically think and not just believe everything you see. Actually analyse it. What could be true? What could be wrong? Yeah. Don't trust everything you see. You really need to think about what you see and why you believe something.

John [00:21:33] Ollie, today has been very insightful. I really want to thank you for sharing your story with us. Do you think there's any last things that you would like to say?

Ollie [00:21:41] I would just like to say it's never too late to flip a leaf. You can always do it. Don't worry about what the past has happened. As I like to think the past is the past. You can cannot change it but the future, you can alter.

John [00:21:53] Ollie, thank you for being part of Start the Conversation.

Ollie [00:21:55] Thank you. Appreciate it.

John [00:21:57] We are all very proud of you Ollie.

Ollie [00:21:58] Thank you appreciate it.

Intro [00:22:02] You have been listening to Start the Conversation, a podcast series produced by the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism, Engagement and Support Unit. For more information please see the episode notes or visit www.steptogether.nsw.gov.au