Start The Conversation Episode 6 Transcript

Benjamin [00:00:01] There's a kind of fundamental question, which is what do we do about increasingly isolated people the extremist end of it comes from this, I suppose, this man who's lost the idea that he's ever going to be able to be integrated properly in the wider world he's lost, this kind of sense that he's ever going to have a normal relationship.

Simon intro [00:00:20] The violent extremism landscape is fluid and complex and it can be difficult to navigate. This podcast series has been developed as a means of providing listeners with some thought provoking topics within this context. Personal insights and journeys, as well as helpful information that could assist someone who is vulnerable to being involved in violent extremism. The Engagement and Support Unit services focus on early intervention, awareness and resilience against violent extremism. They consult with and support the local community with this information to help mitigate the drivers of violent extremism and raise awareness of the complex factors and vulnerabilities that contribute to these ideologies. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands and airways on which we are meeting and broadcasting today as we share our learning. We also pay respects to elders past and present. It is their knowledge and experiences that hold the key to the success of our future generations and promote our connection to country and community. Please note that views expressed are not necessarily representative of the New South Wales Government. Episodes may contain depictions of violence or sensitive topics that some people may find distressing. For further information, please view our episode notes.

Heather [00:01:40] Hello, I'm Heather Jackson, Director of the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement Support Unit.

Rebecca [00:01:46] And I'm Rebecca Shaw, Communications and Community Engagement Manager. And this is Start the Conversation. So this podcast episode explores what the term incel means and what defines Incel culture and ideology in this emerging form of gender based violent extremism. The Incel community is part of the manosphere, which is an umbrella term for interconnected, misogynistic online communities, other communities under the manosphere, are men's rights activists and male supremacists. The Incel community has grown to be deeply ideological, promoting hate and violence against women across social media platforms. Their hateful and frustrated worldview has led to violent real life attacks, mass shootings and suicides, become a growing cause of concern across the world. In Australia, however, despite the existence of hate speech towards women, authorities have not identified any overt acts of violence driven by a specific, misogynistic ideology as opposed to domestic violence that had misogyny at its core. Today we are chatting with filmmaker and journalist Benjamin Zand, in his film featured on Four Corners. He takes us into the dark world of Incels, a radical online subculture of young men who rage against women for supposedly denying them sex and then turn that rage into fantasies about horrific violence. The question is whether Incels pose a serious violent extremist threat in Australia, or are they just a group with a multitude of social and neurodiverse issues that are largely misunderstood? Does this online hatred spill out into the real world and how is that defined? So Benjamin, just to start with, I don't think it's a simple question, but probably the most obvious question for anyone listening is - what exactly is an Incel and how did it creep from simple misogyny?

Benjamin [00:03:33] Yeah, I suppose the dictionary definition is that it's someone who's involuntarily celibate, which means, you know, they're not having sex. They're not having sexual interactions. But it's not because they want they don't want to. From that comes a lot of despair and anger and isolation and general resentment. The kind of world around them, I think the kind of creeping from general misogyny is the sense that men are owed sex and kind of this idea that, you know, it's an affront to masculinity, that, you know, women are refusing you sexual intercourse. So there's this, as I said, a lot of that resentment from incels comes from this kind of deeper idea that, you know, could this, I suppose, a slightly kind of primal idea that men should just be having sex when they want? And if you're a man who's not, then there's something inherently wrong with you. And, you know, either you should, you know, effectively kill yourself or you should do something horrific to fight back, essentially.

Heather [00:04:32] And how did you come about looking at this topic?

Benjamin [00:04:35] I mean, I do I do a kind of lot in the world of masculinity and kind of lonely young men. You know, it's kind of a lot of problems stem from that world. You know, a lonely boy is really. So I think I've done a lot into gangs and crime and all that. And I kind of was interested in the world of Incels for quite a long time. The issue with them is that they're very difficult to communicate with because they have a kind of inherent distrust of mainstream media generally. I think what's quite interesting about them as a community is they're very, very isolated community just by definition. So it's not like they're going on marches. You know, they exist in their bedrooms on Internet forums. So a big part of the issue is actually trying to get them to talk. Once I spent a bit of time on some Internet forums and got and worked with members of my team to do so, we realised we could get some people to talk and it was really just a place of trying to, you know, understand what the hell was going on because I think, you know, the term Incel had become used a lot more in wider society, but earlier a lot of people didn't fully understand what it was or the kind of motivations.

Rebecca [00:05:40] Yeah, it's it is confusing because it's sort of which we grapple with, whether it should fall into that sort of far right extremist context because it often intersects with other far right ideologies. But can you comment on why perhaps these individuals fall into a specific ideologically motivated violent extremist category, and not a far right extremist context?

Benjamin [00:06:02] It's predominantly young males who have basically fallen out. You know, they might have been bullied in school or they might have other issues at home. That's kind of the profile of the people I've met. And then they kind of fall into this Internet vortex of just doom, essentially. It's a very kind of nihilistic belief system where they really give up on wider society, you know, you'll talk to a lot of them and they'll say they feel like ghosts. You know, they kind of there's a real like disassociation with with kind of general life. And it all stems from this inability to, I suppose, have any form of normal interaction with women. I mean, sex is obviously the ultimate thing, but in reality, these guys aren't even talking to women at all on a daily basis. So what happens is they then go onto the Internet to try and find answers. They'll spend time on discord there's actually an Incel website and then they'll all kind of egg each other on. So, you know, one guy will post on it saying, I feel really lonely. I feel like, you know, no one loves me. And you know, what they actually need is a therapist to say, okay, let's try and talk through what's going on there. But what will happen is they'll just get this onslaught of men saying, okay, well, it's because you're actually a four out of ten and it's because women don't care about ugly men. And ultimately, if you need if you want to get women, you need to be aggressive and you need to look in this really specific style. So I think the extremist end of it comes from this, I suppose this man who's lost the idea that he's ever going to be able to be integrated properly in the wider world he's lost, this kind of sense that he's ever going to have a normal relationship. And as I said quite often that they have they make this decision of either I want to end my own life because they get this kind of deep depression or I want to make people pay for the fact that I feel rejected by society. And I feel like that's the most dangerous side of it, because you can have these men who are radicalised online into a kind of position where they want to violently make themselves heard. Whether it's kind of far right is another question. I think like, you know, I don't think they all have any, you know, in terms of kind of their political ideology. I don't even think they really even think about that. That's what's interesting about it, you know, they're not really even they're so lost often and they're so isolated and lonely that so much of their ideology starts to just be about the roles of men and women in society. They, you know, they kind of fall into this black pill mindset of, you know, only a really small percentage of men will ever have female attention. And they are not that they are like aliens and women will never find them attractive. You know, and the main thing I can say from spending time on this, I'm actually making another documentary into this world at the moment. It's just depressing. It's a lot of people who are very depressed, who don't have support. They need to go to therapy and they need to kind of be talking about, you know.

Rebecca [00:08:56] Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about that, the sort of vulnerabilities or sort of how we categorise people that may be vulnerable to being almost essentially groomed by other Incels? Is there an age group that's predominantly affected? Can you describe the typical demographic that we're looking at?

Benjamin [00:09:13] Yeah, I'd say there is definitely an age group, and I think it's men who are, you know, boys turning to men is the kind of predominant, you know, I mean, obviously you can get older guys who fall into the space, but the majority of people we interacted with was like people from the age of 17 to 27. You know, it's kind of they they're kind of coming in to their manhood. They are starting to have relationships or they they think that they are expected to have relationships with women and they don't really know how to go about it. You know, and it was it was difficult for me because so much of it was like, well, on the one hand, you know, it's just normal guys who don't know how to have relationships. They, you know, they're trying to find their kind of sexuality and they're trying to understand how to have, you know, how to date and how to interact with them. And but, you know, whereas historically, you know, you might have spoke to some friends and they'd say to you, okay, or you speak to your mom or you're feeling, you know, unsure about what they do is they go on to the Internet and they land on these forums and the forums just brainwash them into just all this terrible stuff, you know? And I think, you know, so I'd say the profile was often up for, you know, a man who's 21, who didn't have a lot of friends in school, isn't working and kind of has is kind of generally feeling disenchanted with life as a whole. They've started to really focus on the relationship aspect of their life and their failure to meet women. And they've started to make a lot of problematic assumptions from that, which is, you know, I am inherently flawed and as a consequence, women are evil because the fact that they're rejecting me means that they must be really bad and I need to do something about that.

Heather [00:10:52] Yeah, it's really interesting. You say a lot of it manifests online and they go to other like minded or find like minded or get indoctrinated into that like minded. When you're looking at social media, you're talking about forums and boards. And we look at, you know, young people that are just, you know, scrolling through or reeling through Tik Tok, etc.. Where do you think a lot of people are finding their information or like minded people? What sort of platforms?

Benjamin [00:11:17] I mean, basically I'd say all every platform could be a kind of vehicle into it. I think Tik Tok definitely has a part in this because I think there's this kind of feeder ideologies that kind of bring people into the space, one of which is like the concept of kind of looks maxxing, which is spoken about a lot in these communities, which is this idea that there is a perfect man. You know, it's like there needs to be a specific jaw shape. You know, the Chad, as they talk about.

Heather [00:11:41] The Chad and Stacys.

Benjamin [00:11:43] The Chad and Stacy, you know you need to be a certain height. You need to I think it's over over six ft, a specific kind of jaw shape, you know, even eyeline and all that. So I think a lot of them come into it from that point where they go, okay, maybe that's actually what it is that, you know, which is, I think something a lot of people struggle with, which is, you know, verging on body dysmorphia, you know, okay, my body isn't right and I need to do things to help me look better. Then they kind of follow that ideology on down the rabbit hole of, okay, well, what what else does this black pill ideology say? Okay. Well, it says that women have a certain place in society and men have a certain place in society. And as I said, I think there's a lot of different feeders because even pickup artists are kind of a variation of this in that like, you know, this this pseudo science that you can supposedly, you know, just, you know, like a kind of snake charmer might just enchant women in a way that they'll kind of just do anything you say. And I think they they kind of take all of these different ideologies and and as with anything, it's effectively just a conspiracy theory that they tell each other. They think they've landed on the answer to all their problems. It makes them momentarily feel better because they have an understanding of the world and then they kind of move on to say discord. Discord is the primary place that these ideologies are discussed. You know, they there'll be different discord kind of channels and they'll just constantly pepper each other with this science, you know, which is actually one of the most interesting aspects of it. And I'd say I've a lot about conspiracy theories as well. And so much of it is kind of framed in scientific research. They'll constantly share graphs. They'll share studies where they're kind of alleging to show that, you know, they they they found the kind of secret code and they actually know all the answers to these problems, which obviously isn't true because the people posting these things are also on these forums. They're also depressed.

Rebecca [00:13:23] If we step it back a little bit to the for people who have no idea of what you're talking about when you're talking about Chad, Stacy's, red pill, black pill, obviously, this Incel culture has created its own language for these in-group conversations that happen on these platforms. I guess that allows members to identify who is part of the community. But can you talk a little bit about the meaning behind some of those and where they came from?

Benjamin [00:13:45] So the meaning behind what like kind of Chad and Stacy.

Rebecca [00:13:48] And well, I guess, what were the very first ones? Did it start with the pills? Black pill, Red pill.

Benjamin [00:13:53] Yeah. So the kind of the pill ideology is a matrix reference, you know, that you can take that you can take the red pill or the blue pill. And, you know, if you choose the correct pill, you're suddenly awoken to the realities of life, you know, and it's this idea that actually Incels and other men in its groups are actually more intelligent than everybody else, because actually they've stumbled upon the realities of the world and everyone else is living in denial. And that's why I say it's very conspiracy theory esque, because in reality it's that thing where they've taken maybe some kind of small kernel of truth, which is okay, maybe more handsome and beautiful people in society get more attention and they kind of take that as an initial thought process and then they go, okay, let's extrapolate that into all these wild theories that we are proposing as the answer to the world's problems. And then from the kind of the pills you have, the red pill, which is kind of like the first stage so low, you know, in the early stages, are kind of Inceldom. A lot of this came from Reddit, so there'd be a kind of red pill communities where they'd be talking about a lot of these things. And then you have the black pill ideology, which is quite often seen as this quite nihilistic view, which is, you know, effectively the world is just flawed. If you're an ugly guy, you are just you're just doomed, you know, and you can either looks maxx, which means you can just change your appearance or you can literally change who you are. Or you can just go on this rage attack where you kill people and kill yourself as a kind of endpoint. They see the world as Chads and Stacy's. They are the kind of top of the societal attraction ladder Chads are you know, Brad Pitt, you know, unbelievably attractive men who get a majority of female attention. And Stacy's are the majority of women who, in the kind of eyes of Incels just have it really easy. They can have sex whenever they want. They can meet men whenever they want. They see it as kind of like, I forgot their specific stats, but they talk about this idea that, you know, 10% of men get 80% of attention or something. That's kind of how they see it. And so they see then this kind of other community of, you know, Incel esque individuals who actually just are the rejects of society. And they are feeling, as I said, they feel like ghosts. No one pays attention to them. No one really looks at them. They don't get any love. And they then are just the runts, you know.

Rebecca [00:16:14] It's like so many of our ideologies in the work that we do, they're all just at their core looking for a sense of belonging and community. Yeah. And they've got these underlying vulnerabilities which need, you know, they've been misguided.

Benjamin [00:16:28] And that's what I find really difficult about it, because I think like on the one hand, like ultimately and sometimes it just feels way too it makes you sound like kind of hippie, which is like a they just need love and community. And it is they do, you know, like they they're kind of just yearning for normal relationships and but they, you know, and they just want love and attention and they haven't really got that. And but the scary thing is. Some of them it does feel. You know, I don't think it's too late, but it's very difficult to pull them back from where they have got to now.

Rebecca [00:17:03] Do you think Covid and increased time spent online has anything to any part to play in the sort of rise in attacks? Or  I guess even just subscribing to certain social media?

Benjamin [00:17:15] Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm not kind of a researcher in the sense that I have any any specific data beyond from what we've kind of done in documentary. I'd say kind of anecdotally like, yes, you know, 100%. So much of these ideologies are about feeling isolated and disconnection and exposure to crazy, really quite extreme beliefs. And all of the guys I spoke to, those kind of critical moments in their life, usually when they were in their final years of high school or they were going on to college or university where they just detached from the world, you know, they didn't really have many friends in the first place. But once they got out of the structure of school and they ended up going to say college but maybe not doing very well and they they ended up dropping out and they didn't they didn't go into work. All of their time was spent like the actual physicality of just sitting in a room in darkness on a forum. And it's like, there's no way that's ever going to make you feel like you have.

Rebecca [00:18:14] Good.

Benjamin [00:18:15] Exactly. You know, it's so extreme to the point that, you know, one of the guys in the documentary on On Four Corners, you know, when we take him out, he talks about the fact that he didn't even he didn't actually think there'd be people outside because he the forums were telling him from like this kind of, you know, pseudo scientific perspective that there was a there was a teenage virgin epidemic, you know, just like everybody was a virgin because there wasn't anybody in the actual outside world to have sex with.

Rebecca [00:18:43] So misguided, isn't it?

Heather [00:18:45] That's going down a real rabbit hole. When you talk about when you talk about those people that are hard to claw back in, those more extreme sort of at the pointy end of this ideology or these thought processes. What are you seeing in the U.K. in terms of those acts of violence towards women or other people in that destructive sort of mode that they're in?

Benjamin [00:19:06] The biggest one here was was Jake Davies, who was in Plymouth. I mean, it's a bit it's a bit tricky to think the I need to I need to look into it properly, effectively, because whether or not it has been classed as him being he did it because of you as an Incel because of all the issues in his life is another question. But he was definitely on Incel forums. You know this ther'es videos of him talking about the kind of anger he feels because he's not getting attention and he's not able to kind of form a proper relationship. He went on to murder his own mother. So effectively, he definitely was a misogynist in how he saw the world. And he was on Incel forums. Whether he was a Incel is slightly difficult to define.

Rebecca [00:19:55] I guess we're just interested in in knowing how law enforcement identify Incel crime and define it, you know, as opposed to just gender based violence, you know, domestic violence or misogyny.

Benjamin [00:20:06] To be honest, I don't actually know the answer to that question. I think part of the problem with the Jake Davis case is that it is a new concept. And I don't know if it's extremely easy to identify something as an incel. So, for example, I think it's easier to say he is a misogynist because of what he posted online. He killed five people. He had issues in his family and issues with his mom and he ended up killing his own mom. And, you know, he definitely was on Incel forums. He had posted on an Incel forum within the film that I made for Four Corners we speak to somebody who talks about being a moderator on a forum that he was posting on, where he was talking about going to buy a gun. But I think there is an issue around whether somebody is an incel attacker or they have other issues in their life beyond that. I'd say in terms of whether I feel as though there are multiple incels waiting to attack. I'd say probably not in all honesty, because of the kind of inherent nature of incels, you know, they are so isolated. It's not like ISIS where, you know, you're saying come and fight for this great cause and you're trying to create a caliphate. And, you know, this is going to you know, when you die, you're going to go and be a martyr and everything will be fantastic. It's not really like that. You know, so much of it, as I said before, is kind of is very nihilistic in the sense that it doesn't really promise anything positive. So it's not like you're kind of being encouraged to do something beyond just pure chaos. So I think, yes, some people will take that and they'll feel so resentful, but the majority of them are locked away in their homes feeling really depressed. I think the issue is kind of individual acts of violence because somebody feels pent up resentment and anger. And I'd say that is definitely a risk.

Rebecca [00:21:46] It's like the lone, the lone actor with a lot of the ideologies. It's not necessarily big group movements. The Incel movement is it.

Benjamin [00:21:53] The problems with making a documentary is that we were trying to kind of actually meet up with groups of incels, and the reality is they just don't meet up in groups at all, you know, like it was literally impossible to meet up with any Incels beyond themselves because they never interact with each other in the real world.

Heather [00:22:12] It's really interesting because, you know, sort of birds of a feather. But when we're looking at influencers and you talked about like obviously moderators and people online egging each other on, but we often hear about Andrew Tate being, you know, has excessive amount of followers that have that sort of misogynistic outlook. How sort of influential do you think certain individuals are and in who do you think they are?

Benjamin [00:22:35] Yeah, I mean, Andrew Tate's a weird one because I suppose to Incels, he's like, he's a Chad. You know, they see him as a good looking guy who's got loads of money and who has multiple female partners. So I think for them, if you ask them outright, what do you think of Andrew Tate? They hate Andrew Tate.

Rebecca [00:22:51] Because it contradicts their very thought process.

Benjamin [00:22:55] He's kind of everything, they're not. That said, I'd say the kind of general movement of people like Andrew Tate towards this idea of, I suppose, females as property or kind of general ownership of women in that sense, I think has manifested into a lot of these ideologies and this very old school idea of male and female roles in society really does lead into this Incel belief around I am entitled to sex and I'm not getting sex. And you see that with cases like, you know, Elliot Rodger in the US where, you know, before his horrific attack at a university where he killed multiple people, where he just raging about the fact that he he's not having getting female attention because he feels entitled to it. I think that entitlement comes from a lot of big influences who are kind of talking about the roles of men and women in society. And I think that kind of then trickles down into into the Incel world.

Rebecca [00:23:54] This one sort of feeds into like trying to define Incel as a sort of ideology. In your opinion and with the Incels that you have spoken to in your work, do you think Incel members are really looking for sex or absolute male supremacy?

Benjamin [00:24:08] It's really hard because they're not like obviously completely homogenous in that sense. I'd say there's variations within it. I'd say the majority of people I met are looking for relationships. You know, they want they want to find love. It's tricky, though, because I'd say their views are so warped at this point that they would prefer complete male dominance over society because it would be easier for them to find love. It's a hard question to answer, you know, I'd say. I think if early on in their lives they had, I suppose, normal relationships and they had, you know, kind of help in terms of their kind of mental health issues, I'd say, Yeah, they just actually want to feel loved and they want to be able to love. But I'd say now that they've got quite radicalised, it's a hard question to answer because I'd say they probably would prefer a, you know, extreme male dominant, dominant society in which they can do whatever the hell they want.

Heather [00:25:07] And I think that's really interesting because when you started the interview, you just said they need therapy and that, you know, and then you've talked about some trauma background that they have and the loneliness that they experience and put themselves through. But do you think on a whole, do you think many could be disengaged from this sort of thought process with the right supports around them?

Benjamin [00:25:27] I mean, I hope so, because what type of world we live in, you know, I think it's not just it's not just that.

Rebecca [00:25:33] It's how do we get to them as well?

Benjamin [00:25:35] Yeah. I think with this, there's a lot more extremist ideologies these days, you know, as a consequence of the Internet. You know, you've got to hope that you can reach people. You know, I do a lot of, as I said, about kind of people who are extreme in their beliefs, not just Incels. And I think each time I meet them, I kind of have the same initial thought, which is, you just need therapy. And obviously it's not as simple as you just need therapy at all. There is obviously humanity there at the heart it's somebody who's had a difficult life, who has latched onto really problematic thoughts as an answer to their problems. And it's not working for them and they can't quite realise it. So I, you know, I hope you can, you know, disengage them. I think what I would say is the issue is like it's not like we're getting to a world where people are going to spend less time on the Internet. You know it's quite the opposite. If you actually just listened to what these guys were telling me for this film, all of them are saying, I just want a community every single one of them. They kind of recognise that it's not doing them good to be on the internet for the amount of time they're on the Internet, but they don't really know how to re-engage with the world. And it's very depressing for me, I think, because quite often, I mean, I don't really know what the answer is, but I'd say I interact more and more now with people who have really problematic beliefs. You can meet them at the humanity of you want love, you want comfort, you want support, you want kind of the basic human requirements of existence. But what do they do in order to get that, especially when they have gone so far down the rabbit hole? They have issues now that are quite hard to re-engage with.

Rebecca [00:27:10] Such a tricky one. But for parents, I suppose, or even a loved one of someone that they might be concerned about going down one of these rabbit holes, what early warning signs could we be aware of? What could people be I guess looking at some red flags to perhaps then go on and get some help.

Benjamin [00:27:29] All of the people I met had issues with their parents. They then kind of self soothed by spending hours upon hours on the Internet to the point that they were spending, you know, the full day on the Internet and they were hardly coming out to their rooms. I mean, if your child is doing that, then yeah you need to do something about it, because obviously that's not a good thing. You know, they just didn't have loving relationships with their parents in the same way that you'd quite expect. I mean that kind of makes it too easy, I guess, because you then think, okay, what if I have a relationship where I talk to my child then there can't be an issue with them. The main thing for me would just be are they disassociating with the wider world by spending hours upon hours on the internet? Are they starting to talk about the roles of men and women in society in a way that you find, you know, quite questionable? The answer to it is not to scream at them, though, because this is the thing. It is quite conspiracy like. And if you're trying to get someone off a conspiracy theory, you don't just disagree with them. Because the problem is, is that they then just think you're part of the system as well. You know, it's trying to find the small bits that you can empathise with and understand and then slowly trying to pull them back because, you know, so much of it is that they feel rejected and they feel like they are an anomaly. And it's trying to make them feel like, no, no, you know you are kind of you are part of wider society there's a reason for you to talk to me because there is hope. You know, I'm trying to get them to to be hopeful instead of feeling complete despair, which is what the majority of them do feel.

Heather [00:28:53] And are they very public in there you were sort of mentioning there about pay attention to the snippets they may be saying about attitudes to women or power dynamics, etc.. But you were sort of talking before that they're very animated online, but very sort of isolated in real life. Would it be you talking about, you know, the mother or the father interacting with the or a loved one interacting with the person. Would they be sort of open about their thoughts or do they keep them quite to themselves?

Benjamin [00:29:21] Well, I think they they get so brainwashed that they don't really know what a conventional thought is. So it's not so much that they're being open or guarded. I mean, they'll be guarded about the fact because, you know, a lot of Incels know that this idea of Incels and men who hate women, so they'll often ignore this. They won't say that outright because they know that that's going to make them look bad, but usually it'll come through. As I said, these statistics that they'll start to kind of list off to you, which is X percent of men get 100% of female attention. Did you know that? Or, you know, like unless you're over six foot, then, you know, women aren't going to pay attention to you. And I think it's like the things they all reveal if you actually talk to them. I think, you know, I don't have kids, so I don't know what a parent child relationship is like. But I get the sense talking to these kids that they actually don't really even talk to their parents about stuff anyway. So the big issue is just that they have a really base level kind of, what are you doing today? Okay, I'm going to school. Okay, cool. Have a nice day at school.

Rebecca [00:30:20] Lacking communication skills.

Benjamin [00:30:21] It's the extent is a kind of communication. Try and dive in a little bit more into what they're doing and what they what they now believe, you know, and just ask them about things, you know.

Rebecca [00:30:32] I mean, how did your you and your team build their trust to get them to come and talk to you on your documentary?

Benjamin [00:30:38] I mean, just by talking to them relentlessly. And we you know, we kind of got we probably approached about 500 people and got about four people, you know, to kind of talk in the end. So it wasn't an easy process. And there was a lot of to ing and fro ing along the way. I think the conclusion was, look, you know, which is basically what we do in all work, which is this is a unbiased, non-judgmental approach. The reality is we are reflecting reality. So whether people think it's good or bad is not really on us. It's just on what they believe. And obviously Inceldom isn't a good phenomenon. And we were kind of transparent about the fact that, you know, it's not a promotion piece, but we're trying to be non-judgmental. And I think they appeal to that idea of, okay, well, I want to be heard. I want people to understand why I'm the way I'm. And that was that was really you know, that was the kind of the way to talk to them.

Heather [00:31:29] And after they watched or I assume they watched the documentary, what did they see in themselves or about themselves?

Rebecca [00:31:35] Yeah. Any self-reflection?

Benjamin [00:31:38] I mean. No, sadly not. I mean, the kind of the most profound character in it I think, was Dee who is like a man we met who was a young guy from southwest of the UK and he kind of hadn't spoken to an adult woman in a real conversation. He had said, obviously like he'd been to the shops and met people and he'd had basic conversations with his mom, but he had never properly had a chat about who he was and what he thought. And just kind of the the wider world. Over the course of filming, he made a lot of progress because he kind of made it very clear at the start that he, you know, he'd never been to the pub. He he just wanted friends. He just wanted to kind of see the world. So once we took him out, he honestly there was so much change just over the months of us doing that. When the documentary came out, he kind of started posting on forums saying that he didn't believe it. He just made it all up, you know, it wasn't real or whatever. And I think, like, that's the thing is there's so much pressure from the Incel community itself because what happens is they are people looking for a community. They find a community in the Incel world and then they're really scared to lose that. So part of the problem with trying to, you know, re-engage them into wider society is they don't want to let go of their Incel friends on these forums. So I think that was part of his issue is like, you know, he.

Rebecca [00:32:52] What's the alternative.

Benjamin [00:32:54] Maybe. Well exactly. Wasn't quite convinced of an alternative. So it was you know, I'll just go back to what I know.

Heather [00:33:00] It is that core of their identification, isn't it, who I am. And it's hard to leave that space and go to another space.

Benjamin [00:33:07] It's the power of like, you know, it's very cult like as well in the sense it's very difficult to leave people you think you're close to. You know, one of the most amazing things for me, because I'm like a generation older than these guys and I'm a decade older than these guys that I was talking to. Even within that ten years, so much has changed about online life. And I think what was kind of really interesting is they would talk about their friends on the Internet as if they were like physical specimen, you know, real people, you know, so it would be like, I'm talking to a guy in Norway who I've never met, I've never spoken to. We play video games together. They would talk about meeting them online as if they were going to the coffee shop to meet them. And it was just so it was actually really difficult for me to understand, you know, I couldn't kind of grasp it because I was just like, well, it's not the same as it and other why is that not the same? You know? So they couldn't even get that. There's a difference between a physical interaction with somebody and and seeing people in the real world to sitting on the Internet and sending some messages.

Rebecca [00:34:07] They don't understand the difference. And for such a newly emerging type ideology, do you have any advice on where people can go for sort of accessible information to learn more on Incels?

Benjamin [00:34:18] I mean, you could watch.

Heather [00:34:19] The documentary!

Benjamin [00:34:22] Yeah, I mean.

Rebecca [00:34:24] Apart from the obvious one.

Benjamin [00:34:25] I mean, there's a there's a good book called Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates, which kind of talks about the  manosphere in general because, you know, it's not just Incels. It's kind of men going their own way. It's pickup artists just like, you know, kind of men's rights movements. So you can kind of understand the subtle spread through that. But yeah, I mean, I think there's a few documentaries on it, but I don't think Incels have been hugely, hugely explored. And the main reason for it is because they're very difficult to get a hold of and talk to in depth. That is the kind of issue. There's quite a few researches like we we talked to Kaitlyn Reiger, who's a she's a Canadian researcher in the documentary who's done a lot of work on this but I think part of the problem with with the research is that it is quite difficult to get them obviously to engage which we found in the documentary.

Heather [00:35:13] It's opened up a whole new world for me.

Rebecca [00:35:16] It really has. Such a light topic.

Benjamin [00:35:19] Good to talk about at 8 a.m. in the morning.

Rebecca [00:35:21] I know. What a what a wake up call.

Heather [00:35:24] Incel and cornflakes.

Rebecca [00:35:25] Thank you so much for chatting with us today Ben, have you got anything else?

Heather [00:35:28] No. It's just been really enlightening. I think the whole issue of that isolation, though, with them really sort of isolating themselves, not really talking, interacting in real life will make it so difficult for us to define who is an Incel and how can we help them. Because I think, as you say, Benjamin, it's it more than a life half lived. It's um and it's just really crying out for that attention and and love and everything that everyone else wants in a community.

Benjamin [00:35:55] Yeah, exactly. And I think, as I said, it's like there's a kind of fundamental question, which is what do we do about increasingly isolated people and a lack of that community for a lot of young people who are spending hours online. And as I said, I don't really know the answer to it. You know, aside from create more incentives for people to go out, give young people more things to do, especially in school or whatever, to try and make them spend more time in the real world. But I actually don't know the answer. And it's actually what I find really difficult about it because it is it's hard.

Rebecca [00:36:24] Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

Benjamin [00:36:26] Well, thank you.

Simon intro [00:36:31] You have been listening to Start the Conversation, a podcast series produced by the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism, Engagement and Support Unit. For more information please see the episode notes or visit www.steptogether.nsw.gov.au