Start The Conversation Episode 9 Transcript

Louisa [00:00:01] I was so glad and so grateful and so astounded that I had survived that. Something so significant as a terrorist event and being part of that, it takes your whole life. It takes you on a different trajectory.

Caroline [00:00:16] One way that victims, I think, can claw back some of that power is to tell their story.

Simon intro [00:00:26] The violent extremism landscape is fluid and complex and it can be difficult to navigate. This podcast series has been developed as a means of providing listeners with some thought -provoking topics within this context. Personal insights and journeys, as well as helpful information that could assist someone who is vulnerable to being involved in violent extremism. The Engagement and Support Unit services focus on early intervention, awareness and resilience against violent extremism. They consult with and support the local community with this information to help mitigate the drivers of violent extremism and raise awareness of the complex factors and vulnerabilities that contribute to these ideologies. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands and airways on which we are meeting and broadcasting today. As we share our learning, we also pay respects to elders past and present. It is their knowledge and experiences that hold the key to the success of our future generations and promote our connection to country and community. Please note that views expressed are not necessarily representative of the NSW Government. Episodes may contain depictions of violence or sensitive topics that some people may find distressing. For further information, please view our episode notes.

Rebecca [00:01:46] Hi, I'm Rebecca Shaw, Communications and Community Engagement Manager for the NSW Countering Violent Extremism, Engagement and Support Unit. This is Start the Conversation. Today we have a powerful episode facilitated by Dr Malcolm Haddon from Multicultural NSW. Malcolm was the project sponsor and lead for Continuum. Dr Malcolm Haddon is Associate Director, Community Resilience at Multicultural NSW. He has worked in countering violent extremism policy and programme development at both state and national levels in Australia for 15 years. So on that note, I will hand over to you, Malcolm. Thank you so much.

Malcolm [00:02:29] Thank you to Step Together for having us here to talk about the Continuum project, which is one of my favourite projects to be able to talk about. Continuum, and you can find it online at continuumproject.com.au Continuum is a digital storytelling platform that is inspired and created by the first -hand experiences, direct voices and real stories of resilience of Australian and New Zealanders survivors of terrorism. Continuum recognises that the stories of terrorism survivors can be a powerful source of hope for a society free from hate. Victims and survivors of terrorism carry a special symbolic weight and power in the public consciousness. Terrorism survivors are not only individual victims of acts of violence. Their experiences come to stand for everything that terrorists and violent extremists want to destroy. Our collective way of life, our values, peace, democracy, society itself. In other words, survivors come to stand for all of us. This symbolic power is also a heavy burden. Not every victim or survivor of terrorism is willing or able to carry that burden and nor should they ever be expected to. Our Continuum storytellers individually and as a community of survivors have made the decision to turn their traumatic, transformative experiences into ethical and creative action with the potential to affect real positive social change. Their stories can help transform society. The Continuum vision is for everyone who listens to these stories to make an ethical decision in their own lives. To speak up, stand up and stand united for a society free from hate. Louisa Hope is a survivor of the 2014 Sydney siege who is determined to turn her experience to good. Louisa funded the Louisa Hope fund for nurses to show her appreciation for those who took care of her in her three month hospital stay following the siege. Louisa, how does your experience as a survivor of terrorism influence your outlook on life today?

Louisa [00:04:18] It is impactful. Like it does certainly change how you view the world. And I can say to you that in many ways it has expanded me as a person because it sort of makes me very much more aware of the bigger world and the bigger concerns that we have.

Malcolm [00:04:36] Louisa, for me one of the most memorable stories you shared during the making of the Continuum project recounted the moment you finally escaped from the Lindt Cafe and found yourself face down in the laneway outside. What was going through your mind at that time?

Louisa [00:04:49] Malcolm, I was so glad and so grateful and so astounded that I had survived that, you know, last ten or so minutes. It was pretty full on. That overwhelmed me, that sense of gratitude. You know, something happens to you, I think it's the adrenaline, you know, when you're in that circumstance and you're thinking at a hundred thousand things at one time. And so I was busy thinking about a whole lot of things but mostly it was that gratitude. And also thinking, because my mother was with me in the siege, like thinking she's definitely dead, mum could not have survived. How could anybody have survived? You know, I'm thinking multiple things but gratitude just grabbed me.

Malcolm [00:05:32] We're also joined here in the studio by Kosta Lucas. Kosta is a researcher, practitioner and writer with over ten years of experience working with communities, governments and industry to address extremism and polarisation. Kosta was a creative driver behind the Continuum project, working directly with survivors of terrorism to help them tell their stories with a sense of agency, purpose, sensitivity and creativity. Kosta, what were some of the specific creative elements or themes you and the storytellers came up with in telling these stories for Continuum?

Kosta [00:05:59] Hey Malcolm, firstly, it's so lovely to join you all and just listen to all of that again. Like I still get goosebumps every time I sit down and really connect with this project. So it's so lovely to be here and being able to share some of the insights on the creative end. You know, I remember we had a significant period of ideating, designing, researching, iterating. We were trying to honour everyone's individual stories while also trying to identify what is common. So we developed a few, I'd say maybe three really important creative elements that recur throughout the platform. First one is this journey line. As you'll see when you visit the website, there are soft curvy lines that go through around the website. Every story has a past, present and future. And again, when we're talking to storytellers who have endured such a unique, traumatic experience, we can often just focus on that experience and we can often discount everything on either side of that and not really understand how one impacts upon the other and then what people take with them into the future. So this idea of these journey lines was really important to us because every one of our storytellers has their own fluid, curvy, curly interweaving lines that have these pulses that represent precise moments where those trajectories change. But again, instead of us making sense about what those moments are, like the good and the bad, we just wanted to let our storytellers decide what they were because everyone's experience of the same thing is not exactly the same. The lines show that to be human is to be both similar and different at the same time and each story is represented by a flowing line because we're on the same space -time continuum but we all have our journey on that continuum. Second is just this idea of a canvas which is represented more so through the sense of space and the specific colours that we use on the website. So from the colours to the formatting, we made a conscious design decision to keep the platform spacious and minimalist because we wanted to maximise other more important aspects of continuum's content which is the stories themselves. We felt that the stories should speak for themselves. They're powerful enough. We also wanted to keep it in a sort of a canvas -like style because we wanted our storytellers to add their own colour, detail while sharing their canvas with others. So we were, again, conscious of having a canvas they can all share while also trying to honour the individuality that they all bring to it because each letter is allowed to stand out individually and stand strong together. So when you look at the word continuum in the way that we've put it together we see that as like an embodied representation of our storytellers as well that they stand out when you look at each of them but they stand strong together. I'd say those are the three main creative motifs or themes that we really tried to capture.

Malcolm [00:08:59] Beautiful. I love that, Kosta. I would add that the process all along has been done with storytellers and survivors of terrorism even all of those creative elements that you referred to were actually co -designed with our storytellers. And you're right, if we encourage listeners to visit the website continuumproject.com.au it's heavy content but it's not in your face. It's up to you to explore in your own time and on your own terms and to let those stories speak for themselves as you say, Kosta. Even the tagline we have for the Continuum Project which is stories of lives transformed by terror I remember co -designing that with our storytellers too because we originally had a different working title, didn't we, Kosta? The title was Stories of Lives Unbroken by Terror and we had a discussion with all our storytellers and it was Jill Hicks a survivor of the London bombing who pointed out that she's not unbroken actually by what happened to her. And so the notion of transformation and continuum was something that we landed on to actually give due credit to those experiences as well from survivors.

Kosta [00:10:04] That idea of transformation is a light illusion to this idea of resilience as well and we all collectively agreed was important and how transformation looks from person to person.

Malcolm [00:10:13] Kosta, working so closely with terrorism survivors there must be some pretty heavy moments in that. What advice do you have in terms of ensuring your approach to storytelling is trauma informed both to the survivors telling their stories and for the people listening to them?

Kosta [00:10:27] It's a good question that we revisited pretty much at every possible point. If you remember, like all of us, we made this resource in very challenging circumstances. We were operating in different states, different abilities that we could use because of COVID restrictions and all that sort of thing. So, again, being mindful of trauma informed practise in such a diffuse national network was like, wow, how do we do this? But then it was in that conversation or dialogue in my own mind where I was like, well, at its heart trauma informed practise is this continuous self -reflective practise and it's only as strong as the relationships cradling everyone involved in it. So I think for me the essence of being trauma informed is what quality of relationships do you create with the people that you are shepherding or you just have a relationship with? If I had to boil it down, it would be things like keeping safety and mutuality really paramount and understanding that trauma is this highly individual experience, which means so too will the needs of the people that you work with, right? So being able to understand how those needs manifest, how trauma may resurface, in what ways they can resurface, being sensitive and open and keeping the conversation lines open about that was one really important thing. And, again, my conversations with Louisa, my conversations with Luul Ibrahim, even my team who are the designers, being mindful of my colleagues, yourselves, at Multicultural New South Wales, it's not necessarily just about one of us. It's like anyone attached to this, we have some duty to think about and have some show of care to. I guess this idea of choice and empowerment is really important in a trauma informed context. And readiness and non -compulsion, I think, are really paramount conditions. We don't ever want any of us, particularly our storytellers in this context, to feel compelled to share anything that they don't feel comfortable sharing and also to speak on things they don't feel a sense of readiness to speak about. Part of the planning around that is also around, let's game plan alternatives. Let's build in room to pivot from original ideas or let's allow for extra time in order for circumstances to resettle. And I think the last thing is just transparency. Creating a culture of conversation about what we can and can't do, that's really important because while survivors and victims of terrorism share this unique, extraordinary experience, you never want to assume that they are this monolithic whole. We want to honour the diversity within this group of storytellers while staying focused on group goals, and that can only happen through regular conversations. There's just so much to consider. At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of the relationships that you maintain with the people that you are working with and you're sharing this journey with.

Malcolm [00:13:12] Yeah, and I suppose that extends also to the way in which we communicate with our broader audiences as well. And I remember when we launched the Continuum Project in Martin Place in December, Abdi Ibrahim, who's a survivor of the Christchurch attack, tragically lost his three -year -old brother as the youngest victim of the Christchurch attack, talking about the way in which you and he worked together to tell his story, which was actually quite innovative in that he's actually quite a shy guy, Abdi, and wasn't really willing to tell his story himself. But you came up with this really interesting creative idea of getting ordinary young Australians from different backgrounds to actually read from his victim impact statement and witness impact statement. And he was there for the recording of that and had a really powerful effect on the young people who were telling his story. And I recall him telling the story at the launch about he was worried about the impact that it had on these ordinary people who weren't there in the Masjid, but were hearing or telling this story for the first time. And he talked about that. He said he lives with this every day, but it's when people hear these words for the first time, he starts to worry about them.

Kosta [00:14:14] Even on that one, I can attest that he was watching the recording very closely for every single person. And he was the first person to go get the tissues, to go comfort them, to go bring them water. It also was beautiful to see that journey bring him out of his shell slightly too. It's because of Continuum, he's able to do things he wasn't able to do previously, to at least use the platform to the best of his abilities with support to tell his story in a way that is true to him. And that's exactly what I was alluding to before in terms of creativity being your friend. When we talked to Abdi about his story and what was troubling him about going out there with it, that's where we came up with this idea. And we did it together. It's his words we had back and forth turning it into a track. And then even the people we chose to participate, we were trauma informed about that because we were looking for that intersection of people that were known to us to have some robustness or ability or willingness to put themselves in a vulnerable position like that and be shown for the first time reciting someone else's such powerful words. He was the most caring, attentive person in that whole process. And I think that even surprised him once he realised. One of many beautiful stories of being part of this incredible project.

Malcolm [00:15:36] Thanks, Kosta. We're also privileged to be joined here today by Caroline O 'Hare. Caroline's a recently retired Detective Chief Inspector who spent 42 years, Caroline, working as a New South Wales police officer. Nearly half of that encountered terrorism. Caroline, as someone who's spent a lot of time investigating terrorists, I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge and history when it comes to perpetrators of terrorism. But from your professional and personal perspective, why is it so important to listen to the victims and survivors of terrorism?

Caroline [00:16:04] Firstly, thank you so much, Malcolm, for having me come along today and be able to speak to the victims of terrorism. And it is really important to listen to victims because it's their opportunity to be validated and to tell their story from their perspective and to relay in first person their own experience. And that can be quite cathartic for some victims, not all victims. But I think that in a way, we're all victims of terrorism as part of the community. Obviously, we're not the primary victims, but people in the community see their own vulnerability through the vulnerability of victims of terrorism, victims and survivors. And through that vulnerability that they see, they develop empathy. And that empathy from the community can be very powerful for victims. And sometimes that empathy with the general community or through the general community can also extend to future would -be terrorists. I know this for a fact because I did actually work on a particular disrupted terrorist attack in Australia where the would -be terrorist became concerned about how many innocent people would be injured and traumatised as a result of an attack that he was planning to be involved with and subsequently decided not to go ahead. There's a lot of power, not just for victims but for the community. But I think first and foremost, we need to respect the narrative and the experience of victims and their experience. I think the other thing is that in a terrorist attack, there's a real imbalance between the perpetrator and the victim in terms of power. The perpetrator has all the power, the victim has none. One way that victims, I think, can claw back some of that power is to tell their story and for their voices to be heard, that they can provide their own narrative of what happened to them rather than us being fed a narrative by the terrorist and the focus being solely on the terrorist. We need to focus on the victims. There's always a lot of media around terrorist attacks. Who was the terrorist? What was the motivation? Who were the victims? Most people wouldn't be able to name one victim from 9 -11. They would certainly know who the lead terrorist was and I think that that has to change. I think the other thing is that we can't assume that all victims can actually speak for themselves or that their voices will be heard. Not all victims survive and so their story is left to be told by others, by survivors or loved ones or those who are bereaved as a result of what has happened to them. I think it's really important where survivors are able to speak that they not only tell their own story, they tell the story for those who can't tell their story. Telling their story to the community is very empowering and we can see that there's not only personal grief by individual victims but there's collective grief across the community and I think that that's a really important part of the resilience building going from trauma to resilience for victims by being empowered, by being listened to, by being respected and by being validated in terms of their experience.

Malcolm [00:19:48] That opens up the question, Caroline, around that collective memory element and how we remember and the importance of remembering. I remember I was walking down Pitt Street in the city one day and I noticed for the first time, I hadn't noticed it before, there was a small memorial outside the Hilton Hotel in Pitt Street in the city, Sydney, and it was dedicated to the memories of the victims of the 1978 Hilton Hotel bombing. Caroline, from your perspective, why is it so important to memorialise terrorist attacks and how can we do this better?

Caroline [00:20:15] We have a tendency to forget our own history and if we don't remember our own history, we don't learn from it. So in a sense, it is important to know what has gone before so that we don't make the same mistakes in the future. But memorialising victims of terrorism is especially important because for some victims, they can be forgotten and most people wouldn't know about the Hilton bombing. It happened in 1978, so as each generation comes through, they're not aware of it. Three people died in that attack and those families of those three victims still suffer to this day and it happened over 45 years ago. Memorials not only help those primary victims and families and the bereaved to come together to grieve and mourn but also to support each other, to have a sense of empathy with those who are still suffering and to come together as a community to have a sense of some sort of healing. And I think for the families of those who were killed and those who were injured, that sense that the community cares is really empowering as well. I went to the United Nations World Congress on Victims of Terrorism a couple of years ago and a woman stood up and she talked about how her child had been in a terrorist attack in Spain and there was a physical memorial placed where the attack had taken place and she would go along and that was very special for her because she felt the presence of her child there. It can work on an individual level but it can also work and provide some healing on a collective level and I think it's important for the community to remember that terrorism is a crime, that it's unacceptable and that the victims are real and they're not just names or sometimes numbers or statistics but they're actually real people so memorialising them is incredibly important and healing on the continuum towards resilience I think. I'm in the process of establishing a terrorism victim support group as you know and the International Day of Recognition of Victims of Terrorism.

Malcolm [00:22:41] 21st of August

Caroline [00:22:42] is the 21st of August exactly. It's United Nations mandated day which is recognised worldwide and that's when we're actually looking to launch our group but it's my intention that from here on we will actually come together on the 21st of August each year to have that memorialisation collectively for all victims of terrorism. So I'm hoping that one day we will have a memorial that we can go to and that we can gather and just spend that time together reflecting as much as we possibly can collectively healing, achieving some resilience in that process.

Malcolm [00:23:25] Absolutely. I'd actually like to think that this continuum project that we've all worked on together is an experiment in digital memorialisation as well.

Caroline [00:23:32] Yes, it is.

Malcolm [00:23:33] So I'd encourage everyone to, again, continuumproject.com.au and to think of this as a process of memorialisation as well by giving the voices back to survivors in that way as well. That spectrum of healing, as you say, in a sense we're all victims. Of course, I said at the outset that victims of terrorism are a special category in a sense of victims because they're targeted in a sense not because of who they are as an individual but because of who they represent, whether they stand for, I know, Louisa, you talk about standing for the state or the government or our principles or democracy. So that individual victim comes to actually stand for everyone. But we can talk about different categories. And, in fact, on the Continuum website, you can find Dr Karmijar talking about the way the literature talks about different levels of victimhood in a sense. Of course, there's the primary victim who's the individual, the individual victim or survivor. But then, as you said, Caroline, there's the families who are still dealing with that over the years. I remember really distinctively making this project when Alpha Cheng, whose father Curtis Cheng, was killed in an ISIS -inspired terrorist attack outside the New South Wales Police headquarters in 2015, remarkably saying during the making of this project that actually there were two victims that day. One was his father and one was a 15 -year -old boy who should never have been in a situation of holding a gun and shooting someone. And then I remember Caroline talking to New South Wales police colleagues who were responsible for looking after the Special Constable whose sad duty it was to have to shoot the 15 -year -old boy. And so these kind of ripple effects of impacts and of victimhood actually start spreading out from the individual to everyone involved, to first responders, to our community more broadly, to everyone who watches or witnesses this through the media as well. So that healing that you talk about is something that actually also has to happen at that whole society level as well sometimes, isn't it?

Caroline [00:25:23] Yes, and we do ask the community to speak up, stand up, say something when they know that there is something that's not right. They know that there is activity that if they report it could potentially disrupt a terrorist attack. But we also need people to talk to our victims, talk about their experience, not to be afraid to talk to victims. If they don't want to talk to you, they won't. I think, and I've spoken to Louisa about this, it's interesting how many people come up to Louisa and say, oh, on the day of the Lindt Cafe, I was supposed to go there, I was supposed to, or I'd been there the week before, I was going the week after. So people really relate their own experience to those of the victims. I know my daughter was going to have her birthday party there a few days later and she was so traumatised and I was working, she rang me up and said, Mum, we can't do this, ring all the other parents and tell them we're not going because everybody sees how it affects them.

Malcolm [00:26:22] What happened that day.

Caroline [00:26:23] What happened that day, exactly.

Malcolm [00:26:25] The memorials are so important again, isn't it?

Caroline [00:26:27] Absolutely.

Malcolm [00:26:27] It touches everybody.

Caroline [00:26:28] Yeah, it does, it really does.

Malcolm [00:26:31] Question for everyone. Louisa, Caroline, Kosta, I think it's fair to say that terrorism can be a highly contentious and polarising topic. We know it's a topic that tabloids love to exploit. The very word terrorism is sometimes enough to make people scared or angry or defensive. Thinking beyond the tabloid headlines, how can the voices and stories of terrorism survivors help change the way we talk about terrorism in our society? How do we start the conversation and how do we change the narrative?

Caroline [00:26:58] Well, I think if we take a victim -centric approach so that when we do talk about terrorism, instead of focusing always on who the terrorist is, we need to have more dialogue about who the victims are. And especially with the media, they're very powerful and they have a very strong voice, but what I would really like to see is that they would take more interest in victims, not just at the time that the incident occurs, but victims suffer throughout their life, you know, psychosocial ways, in physical ways. It's not gone and forgotten in five minutes. So I think we need to continually remember those victims, not just in the instance that it occurs.

Kosta [00:27:42] It's a really provocative question in the sense that it's just, like, it brings to mind so many thoughts. Survivors' voices and perspectives, like, especially with support, like, with communities' support around them, because like you said, Malcolm, like, this can be a really burdensome sense of responsibility that befalls upon people that have not asked for it. They just happen to be at a certain place at a certain time and now they feel compelled to do something with that. That's a huge responsibility. So survivors' voices with that ideal community of support, I really believe and have seen it as actors like the best defence against politicisation, and that leads to further division and enmity in society, because they're some of the most convincing people to listen to when talking about alternatives to hatred and violence and showing people that it's actually possible. That, for me, is like they're some of the most credible, convincing category of people and storytellers. When we're talking about promoting pro -social or more peaceful ways of coexisting and living amongst each other, I think hearing directly from survivors is important because it stops them from just becoming characters in someone else's story. Once you hear a survivor's story, particularly from the person themselves, it's impossible to forget. Like, it changes you. It changes how you see the incident and it refrains how you then tell others about this story. So I think it all contributes to this idea of helping rehabilitate this collective memory that's really important around these issues. We just really have to avoid the temptation to speculate whenever something happens. And we're just talking about sort of speculating around perpetrator motives and things like that. Like, public violence, like, whether it's ideological or not, is terrifying to whoever is in that vicinity. As long as the situation is under control, like, as a community member myself, I'm actually best placed to look after my fellow community members more than anything else. So avoiding that temptation to speculate, and again, understanding that that also comes from a place of trying to control the situations that are really scary and you're trying to account for everything. Like, I also understand that temptation that people have. But if we can resist it and actually develop the practise of thinking about, well, who's directly involved? Who's been directly impacted? What do they need right at this moment? It is a healthier way of engaging in the long term. So we can resist that and help each other resist that so we can focus on the people that have actually been directly impacted. Yeah, we can help restore their humanity too.

Louisa [00:30:14] Yeah, you know, that's a really important thing and been an important thing for me personally ever since it happened. I've spoken to a lot of people, a lot of Australians, because I go out and speak about the siege. Even now, 10 years later, people are still interested. It fascinates me that they are. But I have found that whenever I go to present anywhere, the first thing is that people will often say to me is, oh, I can't believe what you went through. And then you see their eyes glaze over and they kind of go, I couldn't imagine what it would be like because that's exactly what's happening. They are imagining what it would be like and how they would react. So that kind of reminds me of that collective, we are all victims of terror. That brings that universal sense to whenever I share. But also, I find that people have, in particular with regard to the Lindt, they have lots of opinions and lots of very strong opinions and their opinions about the man who was the gunman or who was the terrorist at the Lindt Cafe. They have preconceived ideas. So being able to speak to what our experience was with him personally like, for example, I say that he was very ordinary, very polite, and he was also very well -groomed, as my mother mentioned. All these things which are seemingly nothing but are very personal. And so it pulls back that scary, insane, crazy, evil perspective that people often have. So when you start to see people, see someone, rather as a human being, just like yourself in many ways, but who's done this really, really bad thing, it helps us, I think, to kind of balance and to not be so afraid because, you know, we're afraid of what we don't know. But when we can see that person as human and whilst that might not suit a lot of people to think about them in that way, actually, unless we do, unless we understand that their behaviour is no different. You know, of course it's different, but it's just something that a human has done as opposed to some sort of monster that we can't fathom or can't understand. So that in a way brings a freedom for all of us to kind of think about people who commit these crimes, who they actually are. So then once we start to bring down the fear, then we can start to think logically and perceive some solutions, perhaps. When people are hearing me say, for example, or I certainly hope so, that when I say to them, he was a bad man who happened to be a Muslim as opposed to a Muslim who was universally bad because of that, when I share, I certainly hope to try and bring that to kind of help us to see what really is going on here.

Malcolm [00:33:13] That's a fascinating perspective, especially coming from someone so directly impacted. It's a really important perspective, and I know I worked with my other New South Wales government colleagues in the space of countering violent extremism. People are becoming increasingly conscious of some of the vulnerabilities that might lead someone down a pathway to violent extremism. We all know from other crime types that sometimes victims become perpetrators as well, and taking that human dimension to how we actually deal with this problem, I think it's a really interesting insight coming from you, especially Louisa. For me, one of the greatest privileges of working on the Continuum Project has been meeting inspiring storytellers like yourself and other members of our small Continuum community. What's it been like for you meeting with other survivors through the project?

Louisa [00:33:55] That's been a really important thing. There are lots of circumstances in life where nobody else understands, and somebody's been through that, whether it's a woman having a baby or someone who's been a victim of a car accident or all sorts of things that can happen in life. But this is so particularly niche to say, oh yeah, I was involved in a terror attack. Not many people kind of get that, right? And that's peculiar, to imagine in your life that there you are minding your own business and the next minute you're involved in something that is so universally terrifying. I can remember when I first met Jill Hicks, her terror situation and mine were very different, but at the same time we just knew each other and there's this kind of like silent bond. I can't explain it really. And so it was with the Continuum project, meeting all the others, especially the crew, I must say from New Zealand. That was really important to me because I remember that day so vividly. And if I'd had my way, I would have been on a plane over to New Zealand to kind of go and, I don't know, just be with them. So to meet them and to be there for each other and to go, oh yeah, blah, blah. Oh yeah, we know. That is a thing. And also to understand how everybody is in a different place in their recovery. And I do think that something so significant as a terrorist event and being part of that, it takes your whole life. It takes you on a different trajectory and takes you into a very different place of your own psycho -spiritual development. And so therefore everyone's in a different place and we can collectively gain and give in that circumstance of coming together. When Caroline's talking about organising and arranging a group for survivors, victims of terror, that's a significant thing for me personally because I see that as an opportunity to share and to give and also to receive.

Malcolm [00:35:57] One of the most powerful moments I recall from the making of this project, we were working with survivors from across Australian jurisdictions. We were doing it during COVID lockdowns. We all had to meet online and in one of those meetings that we all came together, Abdi Ibrahim, the Christchurch survivor, was actually in hotel quarantine in Auckland on his way to give his victim impact statement in Christchurch. And to have you there, Louisa, and Jill Hicks from the London bombing, Alpha Cheng who lost his father in the Parramatta shooting, all having been through that already and being able to send that love that you did to Abdi knowing exactly what he was going through, I thought was a really powerful moment. And I think it has been that kind of small community building. I think, Kosta, you've played a really instrumental role in this, has helped, as you said, Kosta, actually maybe helped Abdi come out of his shell  a little bit. He's now actually keen to talk about his experience in a way that he wasn't before. And I think it's the support from the other storytellers and survivors that's been really critical there.

Kosta [00:36:52] That particular meeting that you're referring to is something I think about often in terms of how little needed to be said in order to see these very real connections formed between this extraordinary group of people. And again, those journey lines on the Continuum website, that moment was seeing those lines intersect from all these different journey lines of these people, watching them intersect with one another like that in a very natural way to offer assurance and support in a way that many of us just couldn't do by virtue of not having that specific experience is just something I'll never forget. It was so palpable, even if it was just these invisible connections forming. It was really special to be able to witness that.

Malcolm [00:37:37] So you've been listening to a podcast about the Continuum Project. Continuum, Stories of Lives Transformed by Terror, is the first time that stories of Australian and New Zealander survivors of terrorism have been brought together in the one digital platform. You can listen to Louisa's story from the 2014 Martin Place siege, Jill Hicks' story from the 2005 London bombing, Alpha Cheng's story from the 2015 Parramatta shooting, Julie and Mark Wallace's story from the 2017 London Bridge and Borough Markets attack, and the story of Abdi Ibrahim and his sisters, Luul and Kudra Ibrahim, from the 2019 Christchurch attack. The Continuum storytellers all share an experience of terrorism and its tragic consequences, but the Continuum Project is not just about the terrorist incidents that transform their lives. It is also about life before, during, and after terrorism. It is about life continuing, despite everything that has happened. These are stories of hope and resilience. They are stories that inspire all of us to stand up and stand united for a society free from hate. Please visit the Continuum website at continuumproject.com.au. Louisa, Caroline, Kosta, thank you for being part of this project and for being part of this episode.

Simon intro [00:38:51] You have been listening to Start the Conversation, a podcast series produced by the New South Wales Countering Violent Extremism Engagement and Support Unit. For more information, please see the episode notes or visit www.steptogether.nsw.gov.au.